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Being a teacher has given me a lot of practice at how to help people in the right way. So not just giving them the answer, but helping lead them to the right answer and lead them to the understanding that part of being a teacher has been tremendously valuable in the corporate world. Hello, and welcome to the PY Bytes podcast, where we talk about Python career and mindset. We're your hosts. I'm Julian Sequeira. And I am Bob Baldeboz. If you're looking to improve your python, your career, and learn the mindset for success, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started. Welcome back to another Pie Bytes podcast episode. This is Julian. I'm here with Bob. How's it going? Good, man. Just back from a trip. Kind of feeling good. What about you? Good? No, no, all good. Here I've been. You know, I'm exhausted from holding the fort without you, of course, but I'm just kidding. It was easy. It was easy. Of course, you. You make it look easy when. When you're here, so. But anyway, I'm. I'm very excited because not only do we have people listening from all around the world, which I'm very, very excited about every week, especially friends that listen. So shout out to everyone listening that we. We know in person. It's great, but we have a very, very special, special friend and guest with us today who we've met in person multiple times now. Who is it, Bob? Sean Tybur from teaching Python podcast. Yay. Welcome, Sean. Welcome. Welcome to the show. Hey, guys. Great to be here. I'm really excited to chat with you today and talk about what's been going on in my life for the last couple of years. It's been a bit of a journey. Yeah, I thought it was pretty boring. Well, there was. There was that whole hostage situation I defused. And then, you know, that Nobel Prize reception was pretty awesome. You know, just, you know, just normal, normal everyday stuff. Normal teacher stuff. Yeah. Great. That's amazing. So, Sean, I think most people who listen to our podcast know about teaching Python and know who you are, but for the people that don't, would you mind introducing yourself? Sure. So I am classically trained as an information systems guy, so I did all the computer science track, all of that stuff. I went and worked in industry for years. I got into digital marketing for a while, and then about four or five years ago, I got this opportunity to teach middle school computer science and robotics at a private school here in south Florida. So I jumped at the chance because something that's really important to me is making computer science and coding and programming more welcoming, more accepting and more open to people or to young people, and just leave it at that. Young people, the broadest definition. And so I taught for about three and a half years, and then I got an opportunity that was too good to pass up. So currently I am a senior cloud engineer at Mondelez International, which everyone looks at the first time they hear it and they say, what is Mondelez? I don't know it. But basically, if you go into that, like, the. The yummy aisle at the. At the supermarket, the one that has all the cookies and the crackers and snack foods and everything, and you turn over about half of those packages, they say Mondelez on the back. So we've got. We've got, uh, like, all of the Nabisco brand here in the United States. You're probably familiar with Oreo cookies or, uh, Cadbury chocolates. Those are all the brands that. That Mondelez makes. And I work as a cloud engineer. They're building out our AWS platform, and it's pretty exciting, fun stuff. I've been there about nine months now, and I'm really just enjoying the work that I'm doing and the people that I get to do it with. Awesome. That's amazing. That's really cool. And I almost neglected to mention this, but the teaching Python podcast came along the way with my good friend and partner, Kelly Schuster Paradis, creating a podcast talking about our experiences teaching computer science. Me more of a. With a coding computer science background, her with more of a teaching background and bringing our experiences together in a way that kind of blended them for the best effect. Awesome. So you transitioning from teacher to developer? I mean, by the way, the podcast is still in full swing, right? That didn't change full time. In fact, my win of the week is that Kelly and I are planning out the 100th episode right now. So we are exciting. Coming up on a big number. We're going to make it a live stream. You're going to get an invite soon to come join us live on the air and chat about teaching and python and everything. So we're pretty excited about it. We want to have all of our friends come in and. And chat about, um, the. Just kind of the. The shared experience of trying to teach people how to code or how to learn how to code together. We need to join that. When is that? More or less, uh, probably in about two to three weeks. We'll do the. The live stream and then publish it soon after. Okay, man, that's cool. And this is you inviting us live on the Pie Bytes podcast. Yeah, it has to happen. This is recorded, so, you know, and of course, no one can edit it later or anything. I don't know. This won't be edited out at all. Another chance. This is raw. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you. This is great. Shout out to Kelly as well. Yeah, yeah, sorry. Kelly's an amazing partner, and honestly, the things that she's taught me about teaching, I mean, it's like anything else. You have to learn how to do it and you have to practice it and you get better at it and, and she's just a wonderful teacher, and I'm, I'm privileged to be able to keep working with her on the podcast. That must have been a hard decision, right? Leaving that teaching job. I mean, I know you had a lot of fun there and working with Kelly, but. Yeah. Tell us a bit about that transition, because, you know, nine months, still relatively new. How did you go about that? Becoming developer full time and what were some of the struggles? And. Yeah, tell us more. Sure. Well, let's start with a decision, because, I mean, the decision was probably the toughest one I had to make in my professional career. It's not easy to give up something that you love doing and that, you know, you love doing, right? Like, to make that leap and take the risk of saying, I'm going to go to a new job. And as much as it sounds great, and as much as it's exciting and it has all these new opportunities, you're still giving up something that, you know, for something that you don't know. And for me, that was, that was a tough decision. Um, what it really came down to was there were some things going on in my, in my personal life, my family, with, you know, my wife's job, that I wanted to make sure we had good financial stability. The work itself is exciting and interesting. We're basically building out a brand new cloud platform for a multi billion dollar multinational company. So we started with an empty AWS account and organization and built the entire thing from there. What? Yeah, Julian. It's pretty crazy. And we're doing everything like modern with infrastructures, code DevOps practices. We've got a whole Ci CD pipeline that pushes changes to the platform. It is really, really cool technology stuff. In addition to that, I got invited to do this by someone I've known and admired for many, many years. So one of my best friends that has, I've known for over 15 years asked me to come do it. So when someone asks you to do it, you know, you give it serious consideration. And so that decision was, it was tough, but in the end I think it was the right decision for me, for my family. And that's, you know, so far has been proven out really well. So I made the transition. Um, and it is like drinking from a fire hose every day in terms of learning. Right. There is so much to learn. Um, you know, I had done a little bit with aws before this and a little bit in the cloud, but I kind of dabbled, I guess, would be the amount of, of work that I had done. And so to go into this doing the full time developer, uh, approach and being fully remote, I work out of my house every day. In fact, the first time I walked into a corporate office was seven months after I started. Wow. And so it's been a transition. And remembering how to, you know, how to operate in an IT environment has been interesting and fun. Learning the developer skills that I needed. So my, you know, my GitHub skills have gotten a lot more robust over the past nine months as well. And then, you know, really just focusing on that. How am I learning? How am I growing every day? What do I need to know next? How am I going to get there? Who can help me with it? Who can I help? That has been a big part of the journey as well, and so far so good. I am loving the work that I'm doing. I certainly miss teaching. Like, it is something that I love doing and I'm finding opportunities to bring education into the work that I'm doing. But it's something that I think was the right decision. It continues to be the right decision and I'm excited about the next projects that we're working on in the next steps. That's cool. No, I mean, so many things. You've so many things. I just wanted to cut in there on it and just say, oh my gosh. So firstly, just amazing that you took that jump, right? I mean, we're constantly, I'm going to link a lot of stuff that we talk about to mindset and the things we talk about on the podcast a fair bit because that repetition matters. So in this case, you know, having that courage to jump and change even though you loved what you were doing, but something that was going to push you, help you grow, give you another challenge, let you pursue a passion is amazing. So kudos on that, man. That's incredible. The other thing is that that's a slight, you touched on it for a split second, but someone you've known for 15 years pulled you into this, or said, hey, here's something you'd be fantastic at. Like, if that isn't long term networking. To put it, to put it very coldly, I'm sure you're friends with this person. You know, it's, it's more than just networking, but it's just something that I constantly say is that you never know when your network and your connections, when your relationships will branch into something unexpected like this. So that's, that's incredible. And clearly this is someone you trust, so jumping into it is, was a bit of a no brainer from that perspective. One thing that I do want to ask you, right, we talk to a lot of people for, when it comes to coaching and the PDM program and just having chats with our community, we actually have quite a lot of teachers in our community who teach python or something else, you know, it, or whatever else, finance that want to become programmers professionally, so they want to do exactly what you've just done. And so on behalf of all of them who are listening, I have to ask, you know, when you, so you've talked about how you jumped into the job, but now that you're in there, you know, getting up to speed is probably the biggest challenge, right? They say it takes three to six months for anyone starting a new job to really be functional. But if you're coming from a teaching background, you haven't even been in that corporate environment for, say, three to ten years, whatever it happens to be. How did you get up to speed with all of the skills that you needed? And if you want to touch on as well, what were the key skills you chose to focus on? Yeah, that's a, yeah, that's a really important question to ask because in a way, I get a bit of a head start, right. Because of my background and experience. Like, for me, it's remembering how to ride the bicycle instead of learning to do it the first time. Um, that being said, there's a ton of brand new things that I needed to learn, uh, to be able to do this. I would say the thing before I even started that helped me the most when I was teaching was to always be building. So there's a huge difference between teaching how to someone, how to do something and building it, right? Like, how do you actually build something for a production environment? How do you keep building it? How do you keep iterating on it? Um, so this is the difference between, if you've got code running in a Google colab, great, run it, figure it out, make it work. But then how do you take it to being a hosted application? Or how do you get it to where someone can actually use that? That's not you, the developer? Can you get that in GitHub? Can you get it someplace where other people can see your code? All of those things that the process of building will reveal and help you build your skills. So before I even started, one of the things that I was always doing as a teacher was trying to build some tool or build some process or. My exposure to AWS before I started was that I had a webhook catcher from our Zoom account in the school that would log all of the zoom meetings to a private log file that we had. And I think I ended up putting it in like dynamodb so that it was searchable and everything. But I had the details of everyone who joined every meeting because we had to protect our students and know who was joining each meeting, right. I at least felt confident enough that when they said were going to build this out on AWS, I could say ive seen that. Ive been there. Ive done that a little bit. So then when I made the jump and I was going in, we were on a family trip to California to visit my family, I was totally jet lagged. It was 3 hours ahead of

schedule. So I got up at 05: 13:38

00 every morning. I cracked open a book on terraform, the configuration language that we used to manage this. And I was practicing, I was doing the tutorials, I was walking through it one step at a time, typing out every exercise, making sure I could do it so that when I came in, even though I hadnt really built anything of substance yet, I was at least familiar with the concepts, I understood how things worked, I had a little bit of a head start, and then the nice thing that I was able to do and my boss was able to create the space for us to do was to take the first couple of months just to learn so that we weren't actually expected to deliver anything meaningful yet. So I spent time going through the AWS certification for systems or for cloud architects. I spent time building out everything that I could possibly think of in terraform, even if it wasn't AWS. So I built our configuration for GitHub repos using terraform, so it standardized all the labeling and team assignment and branch protections and all that stuff was all done in terraform so that I could understand and see. Here's the code that I'm writing and here's effect that it has, and I could cycle through that really quickly. So that whole learning process and creating the space for learning. But building while you learn was really important. Like, I'm not the person you watch a YouTube video and say, oh, I get it. It's so obvious and clear. I read, I do. I check my math, right? I go back and look and see how it performed and then I iterate that as fast as I can. Oh my gosh. Beautiful. You've done the unthinkable. I'm speechless. Let me jump in then. Yeah, you jump in. I like how you said the things reveal themselves while building because you can watch YouTube tutorials, but the real world is always different. It was a combination of having the challenge in the job so you have to solve problems. That's what we were paid for. But then even you went a step further. Like when you were not yet faced with the challenge, you would even create the challenge for yourself. Right? So when you were studying, you would type out the exercises or, you know, find a project or challenge to already get that exposure before it was actually even going to happen on the job. Right? Yeah. And you know, the interesting, the interesting thing as you're talking about this that I wanted to bring up too is, you know, I'm in my mid forties. I've been professionally working for a long time now. It is still valuable to have people on your team that know way more than you do about something, right? And so what I would do in my learning process is to also time box my learning, right. So I wouldn't give myself too much time to sit there and spin and try to figure something out. If it's something that hasn't yet been revealed in the building process and I'm struggling with it or I'm struggling to figure it out, I would give myself an hour to figure it out or 2 hours to figure it out. If I didn't feel like I was making progress by that point, id fire up the chat window and go to one of the other members of my team whos more knowledgeable and say, hey, im stuck here, can you help me out? So theres that right balance between really trying to figure it out yourself and going and asking for help so you dont spend forever stuck in that, stuck in the mud trying to figure out how to make it work. Im super happy that you bring that up because I know us as a developer ice, but countless hours being stuck and maybe out of pride or whatever, not reaching out to the team because I was thinking like I was bothering them, I would ask them questions, but you have to. So it's a really good tip to set a deadline and try as hard as you can, but then reach out because people are actually happy to help. They would actually be surprised, I guess, if you wouldn't ask anything because that's not normal. Yeah. And that's honestly one of the things we had some summer interns in that were amazing, and that was one of things that they took them a little bit of time to learn was that you can ask for help, right? This isn't an exam. You can go ask for help. And I think, you know, if, if people are looking for permission, here's your permission, go ask for help. Because if I, as a 20 something year, you know, career it nerd, right? Can go ask other people for help. You can go ask other people for help, right? Like, I taught computer science, I still go ask for help because, you know, nobody can know everything. And it's really about how are you going to efficiently balance your time between learning and productivity and productive learning. That's also part of working on a team, right. You need to be able to rely on each other. You'll learn all sorts of things from asking from help that you won't pick up if you just try and figure it out yourself. In fact, my technique is just always ask and never figure it out yourself at all. No, I'm just kidding. I don't just get someone else to do the work for you. That's my approach. No, that's great, Sean. I really love how you've approached this because you like, I'm not trying to pat you on the back too much here, but it's to jump from what? From being a teacher. Of what grades were the students that you were teaching? Grade seven C us grades seven and eight. So roughly 1314 year old students. Yes. That's that middle school. You guys call it middle school, right? Yeah. Yeah. So jumping from a middle school teacher of grade seven and eight students to working as a senior cloud engineer at a gigantic company is just a massive, massive step. And so the fact that you've been able to work on techniques, not let it intimidate you too much, be able to figure out a way to get yourself into that team, uh, build those relationships. So again, those relationships matter when you ask for help, you actually build those relationships with your team, which is my favorite part about it. Uh, so I just, I just love it all round. And one thing I have to ask is, you know, you've, you've come from being a teacher. So how did, have you found that being a teacher has helped you in this role in any way. Oh, have you taken anything? So, my. My teammates have already joked that I have teacher voice, right? Like, I can. I can switch right into teacher voice and. And educate on topics. I know it may seem obvious after I say it, but not only do you need to ask for help, but you also need to be helpful. And so being a teacher has given me a lot of practice at how to help people in the right way. So not just giving them the answer, but helping lead them to the right answer and lead them to the understanding that part of being a teacher has been tremendously valuable in the corporate world and people everywhere, whether you're in a corporate setting, a small business setting, value. The ability to clearly explain concepts, to be able to describe what's going on, to be able to help lead others to understanding and consensus is really helpful in pretty much any business setting you go into. But then I've also tried to continue my passion for teaching and learning and helping others. So at Mondelez, I sit on the certifications board. I'm actually representing certifications that I myself don't possess yet, but I'm there doing it. I also work with our learning management system, so we have been using pluralsight for it education. So I built out a cloud engineering learning pathway for anybody who wants to learn about cloud engineering at Mondelez. And then I also am the co lead of the North America intern program for Mondelez. So for our it interns, I'm helping recruiting. I'm doing a lot of the mentoring and guidance with that. I'm working with someone who's amazing. She's been doing this for nine years, and she's really helping. She makes it look easy, right? Like, there's so much work that goes into onboarding new interns, but I go out and I recruit. I help onboard. I am the cloud engineering intern lead. I just try to be there for those interns so that if they don't know who to ask, they can always come ask me and I can help help them get where they need to be. So that whole idea thing of trying to help guide, mentor lead in terms of learning and understanding is something that I care deeply about. And so I want to make sure that I continue that in whatever role I go into next. Man, that's incredible. Nice integration. Yeah. Yeah. What I really like about that, Sean, is this. It's sort of what Bob and I talk about a lot with, with people is that you have your core job and there's so many other things you can do to really get yourself out there. And find that success and help people grow and share and everything. So these things that you're doing have nothing to do with what you were hired to do, what the core part of your role was. But you've just jumped up and said, I can provide value in these different parts of the business, and it's probably making you look like an absolute superstar, which is incredible. So I have to ask just quickly, for the sake of everyone, because you said it. Can you do your teacher voice for us? Send Bob to detention or something. Bob, we talked about this. You know that that behavior is not acceptable in the classroom, and I'd like you to stop it immediately. We're going to continue on with the rest of the lesson now. And Julian, I'd like you to take over. Oh, my God, that's so good. I'm sweating here. Before I started teaching, one of my. I was at a conference learning about robotics in Pittsburgh, and one of the teachers who was there with us learning from another school, had been in industry for a long time and then became a teacher later on after he retired. And he gave me the advice that you need to find your kind of inner jerk, right. And use it well, right? Like, don't be a jerk, but use that jerk voice because it gets people's attention. And I was like, well, I don't know that I'd go that far, but it's that kind of direct, confident, here's what's going to happen. Voice that, you know, really, you can only use in a teaching setting. And when you do use it, everyone should know that you're using it because you're setting expectations, right? Like, you are setting. Here's what's going to happen for the classroom because we all need to move forward. They know you're not doing it because you're a mean person or a bad guy or anything like that. You're doing it because I'm the teacher and it's my job to lead us all forward. Right. Sometimes you need that authority, right? Yeah. Yeah. And as your friend, I'll just say that your. Your teaching voice sounds like your normal voice. So what is it? I'm kidding. I'm the same. I'm the same person, right? Like, it's still a version of me, right? And that's. That's maybe the. When I think about my career is that. That it's all still the same version of me, right? Like, I don't transform. I'm not a chameleon. I don't turn from one thing into something totally different. I bring all of me to each job that I'm in, each role that I'm in, and I'm using various aspects of who I am in that role as is needed. And so now I've developed out that teacher side of me that I can use in other places, and. And people find it valuable. So for the teachers out there, it's not like you just shelve all of your teaching experience and all the things that you've learned. If you're teaching kindergartners, you can hold down a room full of executives. Right. It's the same concepts. Right. You just maybe use bigger words or not. Right. Yeah. Buzzwords. Lots of buzzwords. Lots of buzzwords. Cool. Hey, so you mentioned that you're on the hiring side as well, and I think you told me that you guys are growing and are hiring. Do you want to share what kind of profile you're looking for? Sure. Sure. Yeah. It's actually interesting. Right now, we've done a really great job of hiring in North America, partly through the intern program, through some other outside channels. We've done a really great job of hiring there. But one of our strategic goals is to grow more globally so that we've got engineers around the world working on Mondelez stuff. I'm excited about it because I love getting to bring in engineers with a lot of different backgrounds into our team. But right now we're hiring primarily in Europe and India, although other areas like Asia Pacific, would be great as well. We are not specifically looking for people who have a ton of AWS experience or terraform infrastructure as code. It's one of those jokes, like, you could ask for five years of experience in a technology that's only been around for three of our mirrors. Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I love that experience of the fast API developer said that he got rejected from a job or he couldn't apply for a job because it asked for two years of fast API experience. He'd only invented it like eleven months earlier. So really what we're looking for, that profile of an engineer, is we are looking for people who have experience in it infrastructure, cloud platforms or development, and are interested in bringing that all together. We are really trying to adopt that DevOps mindset. We have a big layer of cybersecurity baked into this as well. A lot of the initial applications that we're launching are cybersecurity focused, like identity and access management. So really what we're looking for is people who can articulate that they know how to solve technical problems. They go deeply into those solutions to make sure that they're correct. They play nice with others in the cloud. Right. So they know how to work with others, communicate effectively, and most importantly, that they're willing to learn and grow, that they can do that deep dive into learning something brand new and relate it to something that they already know. Yeah, it's almost more about the meta skills than the actual hard skills. Right. It's more about the ability to pick up new stuff. I mean, I always found that very important that you just need to be able to figure things out mostly by yourself and relatively fast. Yeah. You know, it's interesting, Kelly and I talk about this a lot on the podcast about the difference between durable skills and perishable skills. So your perishable skills tend to align more with technology skills. Like, I learned how to code in PHP back in college. I haven't really used it right. And if you ask me to do any sort of PHP coding, that skill has perished for me. I could pick it back up again, but it takes effort. Durable skills are those meta skills. They're the things that you learn that you take with you to whatever you're doing, and you basically use them, whether consciously or unconsciously, every single day. And so they endure a lot longer than those perishable technical skills. Um, I think the one exception to that is apparently, like, I didn't realize this at the time, but SQL is a durable skill. I use that thing everywhere. Like, I use SQL in every job I've been in. I'm always bringing it back. Of all my technical skills, that's one of the most durable that I've encountered in my career. Good to know. That's cool. Yeah. We'll put your contact details in the description. If people are listening and interested, then that can reach out to you. Yeah, that would be amazing. I mean, we're really just looking for good engineers, the super geeks who love to get into stuff and figure out how to make it work and love the process of solving the problems and building things. There's so many of them listening to this right now. So, Sean, we have, I have one more question for you before we have to wrap it up. And we'll probably have to do like another seven episodes to get everything off our chest here. But this one's clearly my question to you. How important is mindset for a developer or having the right mindset for a developer? Well, I think the first thing is, what is the right mindset? Because we can accommodate a lot of different mindsets in the work that we do. I mean, the first step is having a developer who knows that mindset is important, who's even aware of it, that self awareness of how do I think about things, how do I approach problems. That in itself is an important part of being a developer, is just being aware of how you approach problems and how you do things. So to your listeners, if you're listening to this podcast, you think about those things. You think about how am I approaching problems? What mindset do I have? So you're already 50% of the way there just by being aware of your mindset. God help the person who doesn't understand that the way that they view the world matters, the way that they see it. They're just unconsciously going through life without any sort of awareness or perception of how they could affect it. So mindset is hugely important then what we get to is what elements tend to be recurring in that mindset that we see the most with developers. And I see that approach to solving problems where it's highly iterative and the persistence and the perseverance to figure it out tends to always shine through in all the developers I work with, sometimes to a fault, right? Sometimes they, like, they don't give up and go ask for help like we're talking about earlier. Bob, I think the other thing is an awareness that development and software is a team sport. It is not as individual as we like to make it out to be, right? We are working together to solve problems and we're here for each other to help solve those problems. And none of us can do it all on our own and we're all connected. So that additional mindset of, I'm working in a team and I'm working with others, and we're all better together when we collaborate effectively. And then I would say the third mindset that's really important to me is always looking for ways to make things better. And it's not always the code. Sometimes it is the process. It's like, well, wait a minute, we could be doing this better, or here's, you know, another area that we can optimize and, and that's where I probably spend a lot of my time, is just looking at what could we be doing better? How could we make this more effective and more efficient and, you know, better for everyone and whatever those variables are that we're trying to optimize. I would say the last thing, and I want to add this on because the, the last thing is not to take yourself too seriously and give yourself permission to make mistakes and, and be humble along the way. There's only so much any person can do. You have to be kind to yourself as well and recognize that making mistakes and learning from it is a really important part of the process of being a developer. One of the best moments that I saw on my team when we had all of our summer interns in was everyone sharing their moment where they made that big mistake as a developer. Like, I dropped the production db one time on a Friday afternoon, right? Sharing that and letting our interns know that no one is perfect and that we all make mistakes. And if we design our processes and our systems well, you can make mistakes and the end user will never see it. That's a great, great finishing point, man. I love that. That's amazing. So, Bob, what's the last question we have for Sean? The last question, it's about the reading the books. What are you reading? So my. My book that I'm reading right now, and it's equally for me as a, someone going back into development as well as it is for some of the new hires that we're bringing in is a book called the missing read me. And it's about, I don't know if you've seen, you've probably seen this already, but for those, of those, of the listeners who haven't heard it, but it's about making the transition from being a student and a learner in computer science to being a professional software engineer. And so one of the things that's very interesting to me right now, and something I'm working diligently on, is creating the onboarding process for new engineers to our team that looks at what's the first week look like, what's the first month, what's the first 90 days, and then the first year outcomes do we want you to achieve in those timeframes so that by the end of the first year, you're a fully productive contributing engineer on our team, and we can trust you to go make major changes or take on big pieces of work and know that you'll be able to figure it out and be able to contribute. So the missing readme has been a really great guidebook so far on what are the skills, what are the attitudes, the concepts that we should be ensuring our engineers have as they go through this first year onboarding process onto our team. Yeah, great book. I can totally see how that helps you with setting up that onboarding, because it's a bit theoretical at times, but it's definitely like a very good overview of all the skills and mindsets and all the things developers need to know, so that's a really great guide. Yeah. I liked how it's really that kind of end to end view, because I'm trying to figure out where do they need to be at the end of the first year? They could get there in three months, right? That would be amazing. But by that first year, what's the total picture look like? Because I can add in the practical opportunities and the exercises and things that are specific to our team, I needed the help with the theoretical framework of where are we going and what do we want them to be accomplishing in that timeframe. Awesome. Well, guys, this has been a lot of fun. Like, I. I mean, I don't like talking about myself this much usually. Um, but it has been really great to share everything that's been going on and, and the work that I've been doing. You know, like, I feel really connected to my team, but I miss my python friends. Right. Like, I've been so immersed in this. It's been really great to reconnect with both of you and talk about what's been going on. Yeah. Thanks for sharing all these insights. I think our listeners will get a lot of value out of it and inspiration as well, so we appreciate that. Yeah, no, I'm chuffed to have had a chance to see you. It's been a good, what, ten months or a year since we've actually seen each other on camera, I think. But, yeah, we'll have to catch up next year or if I make it over the states again. But I imagine Pycon is going to be next year and maybe we'll be able to get something together for that. But, uh, man, it's just, it's a pleasure to see you and hear your story and hear how great everything's going and that it's just been a huge success making the jump. Uh, and, and that, and just as importantly for us, that you're still doing the podcast with Kelly. So I love hearing that that's still going strong. So I love it. But, uh, Sean, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure chatting, hearing how it's going, everyone listening. I hope you've gotten a lot out of it. Sean has shared. So, actually, slight disclaimer. We didn't discuss anything prior to getting on this call. In fact, Shaun and I chatted briefly last night on WhatsApp and ended up talking about the steam deck instead of anything to do with the podcast. So that's how well organized we are. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Super prepared. But it's just shorten your responses. Super candid, super well thought out. I thought we'd throw you a curveball or two in there, but you still smashed it, so I appreciate it. And they aligned with our PDM approach. You know, maybe there's something to that approach. Right. Like, if it seems like it's working right, like it's not just made up out of thin air. Exactly. Damn right. Right. Well, that's it for me. Thank you, everyone, for listening, as always. Sean, any final words that you want to share with anyone before we drop? No, I was just going to encourage. The teaching Python podcast is not just for teachers, so feel free to give us a listen. We're at teachingpython FM on the web. You can also reach us on Twitter at teachingpython. And I'm tiber on Python. That's about the. On Twitter, that's about the only social media I do. So if you want to find me and chat with me, that's the place to do it. Good to know. We'll link all that in the show notes. Nice. Well, I'm excited, and hopefully we can do this again soon and keep chatting. And if anybody listening wants to reach out and ask me questions or follow up, I'm happy to do that. Expect a lot of messages. And yes, we should do part two. Totally. Sounds good. All right, well, Sean, beautiful. Thanks a lot. Nice to see you both. Take care. We hope you enjoyed this episode. To hear more from us, go to Pibyte friends. That is Pibit es friends, and receive a free gift just for being a friend of the show and to join our thriving slack community of python programmers. Go to Pibytes community, that's pybit es forward slash community. We hope to see you there and catch you in the next episode.