And we have some kind of specific impostor syndrome related with that specific piece of code that we wrote. And this person's, this person has left this comment, and your unconscious relational processes have caused you to feel very defensive. But you don't notice this normally. You don't notice this. You just respond to it. And if we're using mindfulness, we have the opportunity to go, oh, I don't feel very good about that thing that that person said. Is this really personal? Did they really mean to insult me or offend me? Where does this come from in me? Oh, is my thing, or, oh, no, it's them. Then we have the opportunity to choose how to interact with that person. Hello, and welcome to the Pibytes podcast, where we talk about Python career and mindset. We're your hosts. I'm Julian Sequeira. And I am Bob Valdebos. If you're looking to improve your python, your career, and learn the mindset for success, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started. Hello and welcome back, everybody, to the Pibytes podcast. This is Bob Eldeboss. And I'm here with. I'm Julian. And because this is YouTube, you should be able to see our guest by now. So we're very excited to have Andrew McLeod with us today. Andrew, how's it going? Good, thanks. Pretty good. Nice. Good. Welcome to the show. Thanks. Now, Andrew, we want you to introduce yourself to the audience. So first of all, everyone, welcome back. This episode is being recorded on the 25 November. So that is, I believe that's Thanksgiving in the States and a bunch of other holidays and observances. So whatever it is you're celebrating, we hope you all had a wonderful time off and were able to relax and unwind and code at the same time. So, but with all that said, andrew, welcome to the podcast. We're super excited to have you here. Would you like to introduce yourself to the audience? Sure. Thanks very much for the intro. So you've got my name, Andrew Mcleod. I'm originally from New Zealand, and I left and I went and lived in London like a lot of us do. But I started working in tech at about 99, 2000, and I've been working in tech since then. I've done development, systems engineering, platform, all the different ways of talking about DevOps and system admin and all that kind of thing. And around about the same time, or probably earlier than that, I was quite interested in exploring altered states of mind, altered states of consciousness, perhaps you could say. And that led on to being very interested in meditation, eastern philosophies, that kind of thing. And those two things kind of came together. So from around about 2018. 2019, I tried to bring, or I decided that it would be fulfilling for me to bring my mindfulness experience and my tech career together in some way. And that's the journey that I've been on since then through the pandemic. Interesting. So tech background, and then you kind of pivot into mindfulness and applying that to the tech industry. And I think you also mentioned it in the context of humanizing tech. Right. So I wanted to know, like, yeah, what made you pivot into that, and why is it important? What trends did you see and what is the humanization aspect that's really needed these days? Sure. So my experience, my experience, my personal experience was that perhaps my social skills weren't highly honed for many different reasons. And I definitely undervalued, say, the emotional aspects of being a human being. I was much more focused on logic, thinking about how to live, I guess, is one way to put it. And the meditation helped me with that over time, become aware of underlying emotions and their importance. And then at around about 2018, I looked back and I looked at the tech industry, and I could see that a lot of us who are building the interfaces that people are using to connect with each other now are in the same space, are in the same place, perhaps not being fully connected with themselves, emotionally, socially, perhaps, if I can say that. And then when we all started working remotely, I saw that that was amplifying the problem. People who were sort of being forced to go into an office and have relationships with people and socialize, cooperate, et cetera, were having that taken away. And so I, you know, I, at that point, thought, well, there's a need for this here. Wow. Yeah, that's. That's a good point, by the way, just for everyone. Another mindset episode. I'm just going to throw that in here as well. We have a competition, Andrew. Tech versus mindset episodes of the podcast. Yeah, so far, mindset. So that's about to change. Yeah. Very, very happy now. So, look, this is, this is awesome. And if you. Now, if you don't mind sharing this, and with every episode, we have tiny bit of prep. So there are some notes here that we have to ask you about, Andrew. But just based on what you said, I just want to dig into that for a quick second. What sort of things did you notice and see with people going from the people who are forced, as you said, people who were forced into the office, they get that forced sort of social interaction and, and all of that experience. But when they were allowed or forced to be at home, where they don't necessarily get that, or they can very easily avoid that, what sort of things did you notice and did you see? So I've got two examples pop up into my head. One was just a LinkedIn post, was one of these click link bait, clickbait LinkedIn posts, where it was like, click the like button if you want to work fully from home, you know, from the hybrid or fully from the office, and you can guess what the general response was. But there was a guy that had posted some. He was quite aware of this and he talked exactly about this, and he said, you know, it's. I'm not very good at making friends now. I've lost all of those easy opportunities to connect with people. And so working from home has been really difficult for me, and I'm very depressed. And he wrote this on, in a LinkedIn post, and I thought, well, that's really, that's really vulnerable and quite, you know, deep. And another example that pops into my head was the last company that I was consulting at, one of the last, and I joined a. It was a tech peer programming call. And I joined this call and I said, how are you? And the other person said, good, thanks, and started talking straight about the coding. And I said, no, no, no, I really am genuinely interested to know how you are. And they talked to me then for about 45 minutes about their boiler, about how they were scared of their new neighbors, how they didn't know anyone in the new area that they'd moved to because of the pandemic. They didn't have any friends. And it just. I could feel this, you know, this real need to connect with me. And I could see that a real lack of connection with the other people in the team. I mean, I experienced it myself and then I saw it there. So those are two recent examples that hit. That hits home, that hits home for me because I actually don't like it when I ask someone how they're going, and they just say, yeah, good. And I'm like, that's it. I actually asked you because I care and I want to. I want the answer. I'm giving you a minute or two of my time to tell me, yeah, I've had a tough week, or this has been the best week I've had in three weeks, you know, so I. Yeah, I definitely empathize with that. So that's. Yeah, good points, good call outs. Yeah. And it tends to get so technical and therefore also a bit cold. Right. For example, with code reviewing, it's all about the code, and you mentioned interfaces, but we have to remember, we're all humans. They're all humans writing the code and consuming the code in some form. And we talk about the code, but there's always a human behind, and sometimes that's easy to forget. So I think it's really important. So maybe to dive a bit deeper than how mindfulness actually humanizes. Right. Well, let's be clear that it doesn't always do that. So if you are following some instructions on the Internet about how to be mindful, and you might be very good at placing your attention exactly where you want it and holding it there. But. And that might align with certain definitions of what mindfulness is. So what I see is one of the most important uses of mindfulness is to become aware of different sources of information in your organism, you could say. And so the examples, what we're talking about before, with people being very logical, typically, their attention is very much placed up in their head, where their thoughts are, where those logic processes are. But we also have other information coming through to us, like, for example, how our stomach feels when we're nervous or excited, how our chest feels when we're anxious. And when we use our mindfulness tool set to place our attention in those places, we can become aware of this extra information, and we can make more informed decisions from that extra information. So I think that helps us to be aware of how we feel, and that's a pretty fundamental part of emotional intelligence and what it means to be human, being aware of how we feel about our needs and therefore being aware about how other people feel when we're communicating with them. Yeah, there's that whole aspect of, you know, paying attention to your body, not ignoring the signs. So there's the mindfulness. Right. So knowing and trusting it as well. And then. Yeah, I like that. That also broadens into being able to see the signs in other people. You know, how do they react? If you can see someone starting to be anxious, they're tightening up. Their breathing is shortened. You can see it. You can almost feel it radiating off them. That's your chance to jump in, because everyone's not gonna. Not everyone's gonna say it. This is really cool. It's really getting me thinking. A lot of it is empathy, right? Yeah. Right. No, no. I think there's a small exercise called mindful communication, where you set a timer for a minute. You have a small group, two or three people. The 1 minute one person is speaking, they're only allowed to talk about what's going on right now. So how they feel, sensory inputs. You can talk about what thoughts are in your head, but not going along with the stories about them. And the other people have to just listen. They can acknowledge what you've said, but no fixing, no helping, no suggestions, just paying attention to what you're saying, not thinking about what you're going to say when it's your turn. And just listening to how you feel and when you do this exercise can feel very uncomfortable for the person speaking. But you, as a listener, you do notice how you feel and how they feel. And it's really, it doesn't require any thinking. It's just, this just happens. Yeah. Wow. Almost like another level or dimension. Yeah, that sounds cool. And it forces you to, like, as the speaker, it like forces you to be in the moment, like right now. It'll force me to stop thinking about tomorrow's activities and what's happening next week and all that stuff. And I'm thinking, well, right now I'm hot. I wish I had the fan on. My feet are hurting from standing up. Exactly. Thirsty? I wish I had a chocolate bar. No. So, no, I love it. I think that's really cool. Now, one thing just to segue into the thing that really sparked my interest when we spoke earlier was you were talking about how people tend to use mindfulness to fix problems. And that to me, I'd never heard it written or spoken that way before. So do you want to share with everyone listening what you meant by that? I'd love to. So I think most people have some kind of, they have their own understanding of what mindfulness means. It's probably connected to the word meditation, which is reasonable. And a lot of people then connect it to, I know, philosophical ideas and enlightenment. Maybe there's a dangerous word, and then whatever your idea is of what that is. And I think quite often people think there's a lot of mystery around this. I don't think there should be, but there's a lot of mystery around it. And so that mystery, that kind of information void, allows people to grow their own ideas about what might happen there. And so mindfulness meditation, etc. Can often seem like a magic bullet to fix problems. I think that's, that's how, that's what I'm thinking. How does it sound for both of you? You mean that, that mindfulness can be used like that? Yeah. Oh, totally. You know, you, the whole thought of, okay, you're going through stress, you've got a problem. You've got something happening, something that's bothering you. Right. And that the act of sitting there, being mindful of the situation just solves the problem. You know that if you sit there and meditate. So I link mindfulness with meditation. Right. Because for me to be able to be mindful of a situation around me, whatever's going on, I kind of do need to meditate in a way of, like, taking time out, sitting away, intentionally being in that moment. Right. Um, but, yeah. The one thing that I always struggled to continue it, that exercise of doing that, was that when I was done that moment of meditation or mindfulness session, the, I'll say, problems in. In quotes here, but the problems that I had leading into that session are still there. I may not. I may have slowed my breathing, the anxiety maybe I felt before that, about a big day, a meeting, a presentation going live on Facebook, those things might melt away. But the act of having to go live on Facebook still there, the act of having to do that presentation still coming up, and those feelings can come back. Right. So I just sort of went, okay, maybe I'll just use the exercise of. To calm myself down in the moment. And that's it. That's my takeaway. Right. So, yeah. And so this is. This is the way that a lot of people think about it. And it's a nice example is if you're. If you're meditating or practicing mindfulness and you notice you are hungry, you notice a sensation in your stomach, which is often related for a desire to eat, and you. Well, then the best thing is probably to eat something. I mean, ideally, it happens. I teach meditation online, and quite often people will say, I didn't realize how tired I was. What do I do? Have sleep, go to bed, have a nap. I mean, this is, this is, you know, part of what mindfulness is, is noticing what's going on so that you have the information to act correctly or, you know. Yeah, so there's a quote about, people never make the wrong choice. They just don't have enough information to make the right choice. That's not the quote. It's something like that. So the more you know, when you're practicing mindfulness and you have more information about how you feel, you can choose to act accordingly. So. And to continue with the question, I think there are a lot of, as corporations start to integrate their mind, try to integrate mindfulness into their wellness programs, a lot of those corporations are trying to use that mindfulness to get people to be more comfortable, more happy, with dissatisfactory working conditions, you could say. So I'm not. I'm super stressed at this job, at this huge tech company. That's okay. Go and breathe in the corner for ten minutes. Right. Well, and then maybe you're breathing in the corner and you're like, well, I'm still stressed. Why isn't this working? Well, maybe now you're just aware of the stress even more, and there you have more information to take action. So is this awareness kind of half of the battle then? Definitely. I mean, we don't. Part of the. Part of the reason we need mindfulness is because people don't place their awareness where there is discomfort. So our habit and our training is, I don't like this feeling. I'm going to ignore it by engaging in other activities. I'm not happy. So I'm going to get drunk. Comfort zone, right? Yeah. It's like we, when we try to move outside of our comfort zone, you're always pulled back into it, right? Because outside of the comfort zone, it's scary, it's uncertain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, so I've got a question for you, and I might be putting you on the spot here, so forgive me, I'm going to ask it anyway for the people listening right now. They might be sitting here on the fence going, well, okay, on the fence with mindfulness, going, well, what then? What do I do? How do I do it? How does. Does mindfulness even have a place in my day to day? How can it benefit me? And you've talked about it making you aware of the things happening with your body, of how you actually feel and what's going on, but how does that help them? And in the example of, like, I'm hungry or I'm tired, like that, that's pretty obvious, right? But when it comes to, you know, working with people, relating with your teammates, with working as part of a team, you know, being a more emotionally intelligent person, whatever, how does it help with those things? And if you have any tips for people as well, I'd love to hear it, too. So, nice, simple question. I asked the easy ones. So the first thing that popped into my head was this idea that there's always pain in life. It's unavoidable. Sorry for the bad news, right? You can't avoid that pain. But then what we often do is we resist the pain. So I know if you've had cramp in your leg recently, but if you try and resist this cramp, then it really hurts. And if you can be like, okay. And you can let it kind of happen, then normally it just tenses up and lets go very quickly. So that's a great example of what that's actually, that's mindfulness in action. You've noticed the pain, and importantly, you're allowing whatever's going on to happen. You're allowing that process to happen, giving it space to occur, and it does its thing and it goes away. But if you don't allow these, if you're not aware of certain processes, then what often happens is your habitual response to pain, which is to try and stop it, to run away from it. And so let's say, for example, you type like this. So my shoulders are up. If you're listening, you can't see my shoulders. My shoulders are up by my ears and my shoulders are very tense. Now. Right now I'm very aware of that. So I can make the choice to relax my shoulders. But if that's a habit, then I'm going to have a lot of shoulder pain, a lot of tension in my shoulders that's probably going to run up my neck. It might give me headaches, might give me jaw tension. I mean, there's all sorts of things that can follow on from that muscular tension by becoming aware of it, and it's painful. So you have to become aware of the pain, and then you have to let it be there. And then you have the option to try and allow it to be there and let it go. And so when we're working with other people, there's a psychologist, and I'll try and remember his name later, a popular book at the moment, which I also can't remember the name of, but I can think I can let you know what it is later. And there's a quote which is, all problems are relational, all human problems are relational. And so when we're working with a team of people, all sorts of relational habits, perspectives, modes are triggered within us from our family, from our early school life, and we are most often not aware of these processes. So we go into a situation where we're interacting with people, say, as a developer, and we've written some code and someone reads the, someone reads our pr and they come back to us and they tell us it's not good for some reason. And we have some kind of specific impostor syndrome related with that specific piece of code that we wrote because it connects to uses a particular library. You have no idea how the library works. You copy and pasted something from stack overflow. You're not sure what's going on. And this person has left this comment and your unconscious relational processes have caused you to feel very defensive. But you don't notice this normally, you don't notice this, you just respond to it. And if we're using mindfulness, we have the opportunity to go, oh, I don't feel very good about that thing that that person said. Is this really personal? Did they really mean to insult me or offend me? Where does this come from in me? Oh, is my thing, or, oh, no, it's them. Then we have the opportunity to choose how to interact with that person. And if we don't, if we're not aware of that, perhaps our response to that person is unfriendly and that obviously impacts team performance, etcetera. You can see how that might cause problems. Yep. Yeah. Interesting. It's like having this deeper layer of interpretation, right? Powerful. It reminds me, you know, that same concept from the seven habits of highly effective people, you know, that talks about, we always have a choice in how we respond, right? And that's what makes us unique. You know, we have a choice. We can choose not to act on our animalistic responses, fight or flight, that sort of thing. You know, we have that ability for cognitive thought. So I guess if you, if someone was to come to you and ask for your support on this and your help and your coaching and everything, what's something that people listening right now could sort of try and keep in mind? It might be completely obvious, by the way, it doesn't have to be some zany, take this potion and you'll be good for the rest of your life. But rather, what's something that someone could take away from this right now to go to have a better conversation today? Well, most people are on holidays and whatever, but when they get back to work with a mountain of emails, there might be some stress. With meetings coming up. After just being on holiday for four days, people might be on edge, tired at the end of the year. What's something they could do now to sort of remind themselves to be present in that moment, to be mindful and choose that reaction and choose to think about the situation before they shoot off a cranky email or something like that. So we can set up trigger points to remind us to be present. So we can say, when I sit down in my work chair, specifically my work chair, then I'll remember to breathe twice, mindfully, just twice. This doesn't have to be sitting for an hour, just breathe twice. And being aware of even one breath is enough. But why not do two even being aware of those two breaths consciously is enough to bring you into your body and bring your attention into your body, as opposed to where it might be. It might be in a concept, it might be an idea about what's going to happen in 20 minutes, which is the meeting with someone about the work you haven't done yet. So you're starting to be stressed about it. But that's where the mind might be. We want to bring the mind back in here for a moment, notice how we feel. And we might feel really sick. I don't know, maybe we feel sick. And if we know we feel that way, then it's not going to influence our reactions to things. We have an opportunity to choose our response. So that's one example. We might have a post it note that says, be present. We might have an apple. We might have some kind of device with a non specific brand that tells us to breathe. Might have a little alarm. Hey, if Apple wants to sponsor us, man, by all means. People use pomodoro timers, so that could be a, that could be a thing. You could have a little mindfulness reminder there. In certain traditions where they teach mindfulness, they teach you to be mindful in all postures. So you've got the formal sitting meditation. You sit on your cushion and that becomes a trigger when you're sitting on your cushion or your meditation bench or whatever to become present. They also teach walking meditation. They teach lying meditation where you fall asleep, probably. They teach eating meditation. So you become more mindful when you start eating. So all of these can be trigger points, but for someone who doesn't do any of this, that's going to sound pretty overwhelming. So it's good. It's a good idea to just pick one thing that could be brushing your teeth. For example, people often say, brush your teeth with your other hand because it's more difficult. You have to be mindful then. Interesting type. With your hands crossed over. No, that sounds rude. Can you. So there are lots of trigger points, but only needs to be one or two breaths for you to become present and switch into present mode rather than having the default mode network control what you're doing. That's cool. Yeah. There's a whole essence of building habits. Yeah, it's all habit building with triggers. Yeah. Sorry, gone. Now go. I will point out it can be very difficult. And a lot of people get discouraged when they start trying to do this because the first thing you notice is how uncomfortable you are. It could be. There's normally a period of being very calm. Oh, this is great. And then you start noticing what's going on and you're like, I don't like this. Why am I doing this thing? This isn't meditation. This isn't making me feel calm, but that's just noticing what's going on. And at that point you don't want to make it a habit. There's a struggle. And it's also we're fighting against billions of years worth of evolution. Here we have this default mode network that I mentioned in the brain that's there to help us stay alive and procreate and use the minimal amount of energy possible. So it's a struggle against that. It's not. It's not necessarily easy. It's simple, but it's not necessarily easy. Billions of years of wiring, right? That's why we like chocolate a lot, right? To stay alive and get our calories right. But I did want to ask like. So I love this trigger aspect. Super viable habit building, like in the context of a code review and being more empathic towards others, maybe newer developers or is there a trigger or a tip that you have because you wrote one or two articles on mindfulness and code reviews, which we're going to link below for sure. So maybe something from that you want to share with our audience how we can be more mindful in code reviews. So in the article, I didn't write anything about specific triggers. So that's an interesting question. If you had the buy in from the company or team, perhaps you could put a custom background image up there on your source control that says remember to stop for a second. So some kind of image, but you want to. One of the most important things is probably to notice when you're in a rush. So if you're in a rush, that's when you're going to be doing things just like. No. Yeah, that's crap. No, I don't want that. It's terrible. Who did that? What are they doing? And you might not even notice how that might affect someone. You're not thinking about it, you're just trying to get the code through the door, right? It passed all the tests. It's a one line change, it's fine, but the something's wrong with it, something that doesn't really matter. You respond quickly, you're not thinking about it. And the other person has been working there for two weeks and they think, oh, that's not very nice, am I not? I really am not that good, etcetera. So when you notice you're in a rush, that can be a great time to think. See, there's something difficult here. I think the way I think of rushing is you're trying to move faster than you can. So it doesn't mean you have to slow down. It means you have to go at the fastest speed possible. Yeah. That's great advice because I think people are generally overwhelmed these days. And when you're rushed. Yeah. Then you come, can come off as harsh and maybe you need to. Then that's that awareness again to go back. Like, well, maybe there's an underlying issue, like maybe I'm giving too much work. And then, you know, you need to fix that underlying problem. Right. You need to. Well, can you fix it? Is it possible at the job you're in? What can be done about it? Can you talk to someone about it? But, yeah, definitely if you're rushing, that means you're and trying to move faster than you can. That means there's something pushing you to move faster than you can. So looking at that, looking at those reasons. Yeah. Awesome. This is awesome. This is great. I think people are going to want to learn more about this, Andrew. And so we'll get to that in a minute. But before we wrap up the episode and talk about where people can find you, and here's a tip. If you picked up, Andrew's got a kiwi accent, so he sounds like a bit better than me. So, Andrew, we always talk about books when we wrap it up. So what book are you reading at the moment or what have you recently read? So a book I recently read was chief joy officer by Richard Sheridan. Do you know this book? No, no, no. It's not really. He's not talking about mindfulness, but it's in there. A lot of what he's talking about is how do you connect with people at work? How do you create an environment where people want to connect? How do you deal with things like once people come back into the office in a hybrid situation, for example, how do you deal with everyone wanting to wear headphones? So it seems so simple, but it makes a big impact on how people work with each other. So I really enjoyed that book. That's by Richard Sheridan. Richard Sheridan. All right. We'll add that to our books list. Yeah, I see it now. That looks cool. I definitely want to read that. Nice one. Maybe additionally, one or two favorite resources on mindfulness. And of course, where can people find you and learn more about what you do? So if you look up John Cabot Zinn, he brought mindfulness to the west in the sixties. He was the guy that started the MBSR movement, mindfulness based stress reduction. So this is a course that's taught. First it was taught at the University of Massachusetts medical School. Now the same course is taught all around the world at hospitals. It has all of the religious aspects removed. It's an eight week course. You can do it online for free or paid, and you get a certificate. So any books that talk about this course or books by John Kabat Zinn are a great place to start with mindfulness. They're very science based, you could say. He references a lot of studies, good quality studies. He doesn't talk about crystals or incense, etcetera. So that's a good place to start. There's another book based on an essay called mcmindfulness. So you can find the essay. I can't remember the publication, but you google it. It's right there. Make mindfulness. And you can just. You get a general idea from the essay that the author is suggesting that often mindfulness is introduced into organizations to just fix problems with the organization and help the person that's doing the mindfulness get the. The problems that are there. So he's very critical of mindfulness. Corporate mindfulness, you might call it. So I think that book's a nice counterbalance. Provides information on how things can be done poorly. Nice. Very useful to have those resources. I definitely. Sorry. Zen mind beginner's mind. Zen mind beginner's mind is very old. It's not that old. It's a Zen book. It's a place where a lot of people start in their meditation journey. Can be very dry. So if you find that, don't try and read. If it doesn't chime with you, then give up and find something else. There's a lot of resources out there that will align with people, different ways of perceiving and experiencing things. Yeah, I think that that's a good point. I don't think there's one right way of doing this. You know, it's what resonates with you the most, what works. So, yeah, that's cool. Yeah, go for it. Sorry, sorry. I'll mention another author, meditation teacher, Jack cornfield. He has many books. And Lama Surya Das, another tibetan. He's a tibetan buddhist teacher. They both have many books. They're western. They're written for. For westerners, so they're quite accessible. We're gonna need a year of mindfulness to read this stuff. There's the complete curriculum here. Nice. Nice. Yeah, that's cool. Actually, you know what you should do on your blog, if you haven't done it already, put this whole list together of, like, where to start. I think that'd be awesome. Um, and talking about blog, where. Where can people find you? So people can find me. You could find me on Instagram at Andrew McCloud es. Yes. I don't. That's Spain. And you can find me on LinkedIn. Those are probably the two best places at the moment. I also have a website, Andrewmccleod es. Awesome. Yeah. Well, we'll link all those three websites, links below and, and code us on the es pivot es. Nice. Spain wins. Yes. So, Andrew, you got to tell everyone. Where are you right now? Where am I right now? I'm in San Sebastian. Nice. I think it has the highest density of Michelin star restaurants in the world. Ah, here we go. I think. I'm not sure the foods. The food's all right. Yeah, it's not bad. Yeah. That part of Spain, the food is really the best. I think it's beautiful. It's amazing. Yeah, it is. It's amazing. Great hiking around here as well. So you can go for a hike before or after you eat way too much. And normally you reside in Barcelona, right? That's right, yeah. Normally I'm. Normally I'm in Barcelona. All right, that's cool. Yeah. You've got to share the story of how you ended up there from New Zealand one time. Andrew, that was spectacular. I've really, really enjoyed this chat, though. It's been really enlightening. And while Bob ran off to go and get his doorbell just now, like I was saying, it's. I would love to just catch up, have a few beers and just chat about this stuff. It's totally cool. The stuff I like to nerd out on, so I really enjoy it. But look, as, as we go, one, obviously, thank you from, from us for being here. But is there anything you want to. Just any parting words for everyone before we drop? I. Good luck in your practice. If you choose to take it up, it really can be transformative. Seven minutes a day for seven days. Try that. See what happens. Small bites, nice. Pie bites and night. Entry level. Yeah. All right, Andrew, thank you so much for being here. We appreciate your time. This has been very, I'm going to use the word, the dangerous word. It's been very enlightening for me. I've been hanging on to that for like 20 minutes. I thoroughly enjoyed the chat. Bob, anything from you? No. Super insightful. Don't think it's often talked about in a developer space, so really happy and grateful that you shared it here today. And yeah, if people are taking up that challenge, because we're always about challenges, seven days, seven minutes, they have any feedback, then they can reach out to you via the mentioned links. And you're also in our slack community, so they can also hit hit you up there. So that would be a great place to connect with me in slack. And thank you both very much for giving me the space to express myself. It's been. It's been fun. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks so much. Thanks, Andrew. Thanks, everyone for tuning in, and we'll be back next week. I'm going to wave because we're on YouTube. Yeah. Bye, YouTube. Thanks, Andrew. Right. We hope you enjoyed this episode. To hear more from us, go to Pibyte Friends, that is Pybit es friends, and receive a free gift just for being a friend of the show. And to join our thriving slack community of python programmers, go to Pibytes community. That's pibit es forward slash community. We hope to see see you there and catch you in the next episode.