And then what I've learned, what I learned with job interviews, is they wanna hear about what you did, right? What did you do? What did you accomplish? What impact did you make? Well, in the military, you don't think like that. You think, as a team, we did this, we did that, we accomplished this. You know, we successfully completed this mission. We brought everyone home. Hello, and welcome to the Pibytes podcast, where we talk about Python career and mindset. We're your hosts. I'm Julian Sequeira. And I am Bob Baldebos. If you're looking to improve your python, your career, and learn the mindset for success, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started. Welcome back to the Pibots podcast. This is Julian. I'm here alone this week for the moment. Normally, I have Bob with me, but I have a very special guest with me this week named Isaac Smit. Now, Isaac and I have this amazing conversation, very special conversation about a very important topic, and that is veterans in the workplace. When I say veterans, I'm talking about our ex military staff that tend to have to transition their way out of military life, sometimes for x many years. Isaac, in this instance, has been with the military in the United States for about 20 years. And two years ago, he had to transition into corporate life. And that is something that I think many people tend to take for granted, that you can just switch, just context, switch from one career to the next, that it's as easy as just getting a new job and moving on, and it really isn't. There are so many nuances and so many concerns for our veterans as they transition from their military lives into corporate work. And Isaac shares some incredible insights. It gets pretty raw, and he talks in great detail about what it's been like for him and what it's like for other veterans when it comes to moving from, again, from the military into civilian corporate life. So this episode is a fantastic conversation. I truly loved doing this interview with Isaac, and as always, there are actionable steps for us, for those of us who are not veterans and who may be working with or be hiring or have people working for us, that ex military staff as well. So definitely listen. Right at the end, there's a whole bunch of actions that Isaac recommends, things to do, things not to do. And enjoy the conversation again. Isaac, thank you for joining me. And everyone else, enjoy the listen. All right, welcome back, Isaac. It is good to have you on the podcast. Welcome. Yeah, thanks, Julian. Thanks for having me. Happy to be here. Yeah, nice. You're the first person to say that. So everyone listening, I am interviewing, as I just mentioned in the intro, Isaac Smith. So Isaac has very kindly come here to join me and talk about veterans in the workplace and difficulties that they face and how we can all support them a lot better than we are now, which is very important and a great topic for us to chat about. But before we dive in, as always, I want to talk about some wins. So, Isaac, did you come pre prepared with a win for us? I did, Julian. My win, and I'm being serious here, not funny is having you as a good friend. That is a win to me, and I truly appreciate it. So thank you. So thank you, man. Yeah, so he, okay, full disclosure, I said come prepared with a win, and that was it. So I thought it was going to be something different. Now anything I say other than that was my win too, is going to be. It's insane. Thanks, man. I appreciate that. That means a lot. Thank you. Let's just end the podcast here. I think let's end on a high. All right, thanks, everyone, for listening. Great, Donna. Glad you all got a lot out of this. Thank you for listening. Nice. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Well, my win has nothing to do with you because you live in Seattle or something, but no, one of my kids had, my middle child had his birthday this week, so that's my winner. Lots of celebrating, lots of cake. Can't wait. That's gonna be my lunch today. It's just leftover cake. And we talk about health stuff a lot, so, breaking the rules, but lots of cake, lots of partying. It's been a great, great week. So there's my win. Um, awesome. I'm still, still emotional about your win, man. Jeez. Let's move on and give me a minute off the microphone. So. All right, thanks for sharing that. That's very nice of you. Um, but as we dive in, before we dive into the, the meat of the episode, why don't you introduce yourself and tell everyone listening, uh, you know, what did you do, what you're about, and then we'll jump in. Oh, yeah, sure. So I spent 20 years in the US Navy, uh, part of special forces and an elite group called, um, special warfare combatant craft crewmen. Shorten it up. We called ourselves swicks. Navy swicks. Not a lot of people know about us. They always called us the best kept secret in the Navy because they didn't know about us. Very small, very small group. On average right now there's probably around maybe seven to 800 swicks. And the other part of naval special warfare is Navy Seals, which everyone knows about Navy seals and there's, you know, around 2500 Navy SeALs, so a lot smaller. And yeah, I did that for 20 years. I enlisted right out of high school, was supposed to go to boot camp on September 11, 2001. That did not happen. They sent us all home. Yeah, sent us all home. And then I ended up going to boot camp actually on the 17 September, and I retired September of 2022, 21 after 20 years. That's cool. Amazing, man. I didn't even know this information and we've talked for ages and haven't discussed this. That's mind blown. That's amazing. And what are you doing now? Since that was 2021, it's almost two years ago. So what's been happening since? Yeah, so now I work Amazon on the AWS side as a program manager. Now was doing leadership development, which I probably should have stressed before in the Navy. One of my last duties, I was in charge of the advancement for all of everyone in naval special warfare. So about 3000 plus people along with that was like their career paths, roadmaps in their career, and then leadership development. And I really grew a passion for leadership development because when you're in the military, like that's part of your career path is becoming a leader. So you have to train the junior personnel to eventually take your spot, knowing that you're not going to be there forever. You're going to move on and move up the chain. So I really enjoy leadership development as well. I was doing leadership development alongside Julian for a while within AWS, and then you had a shift in roles and now I'm program managing. But, yeah, leadership development is very important because that drives having a good leader, you know, drives the culture within the company, drives the environment within the team. And I would always say at the end of the day, ask myself when I was leading, you know, is my team happy? Do they want to come work for me tomorrow? Am I doing what I can to help promote them? And that was kind of my mindset is how am I helping them and do they enjoy it? Are they willing to come back tomorrow? And, you know, if I have a very crappy job, are they willing to do it because they like me and they want to work for me? So that's, that's awesome. And that's probably why we, we get along so well, go through very similar ideologies on this stuff. That's cool. And it's nice to hear that. That's how you rounded out your career in the Navy before you were, before you retired. So that's, that's amazing. And it's a great segue to the topic of today. So as I mentioned earlier, the, the whole presence of veterans moving into workplaces, into corporate work, it's very difficult. It is very difficult. And I have my own experience with this, having hired a few people from the australian military service into roles, but definitely have not experienced, from your side of the fence, from the american or the United States arm of the military, whatever, into workplaces in corporate America. So I'm really keen to hear your insights on all of this stuff. But I figure, why don't we start with what are some of the complications or difficulties that veterans face when they transition from like as you, in your case, your perfect example, 20 years in the service, moving into corporate America. What's, what are some of the difficulties? Yeah, that's a great question, Julian. Um, it, it, the whole process is difficult. Transition out, especially if you've done, you know, 20 years, you're almost having to reprogram your brain because you come from a very top down leadership style. Right. Um, you have to do it because I outrank you, is how it would go. Your idea is dumb because you're not this rank. But if I were a certain rank and I came up with it, then it's a good idea. So it's that type of mentality. And for me, the hardest part was one of the biggest issues or difficulties I've had is dealing with the ambiguity. There's a lot of ambiguity, especially at Amazon. And because you, you come from the military and I'm guessing all forces like this globally, around the world, you have a very structured day. They tell you what needs to get done, when it needs to get done by. Right? And like every day, this is what you're doing. This is what you're doing. I mean, we have meetings every morning saying, hey, here's the plan of the day. Here's what needs to get done. Let's do it. So there was no ambiguity. It was just, here's our tasks. Do them. So for me, it's. The difficulty has been when I'm given like an Amazon, given a task or not even that, trying to come up with an idea of something to do, that's hard for me because I've been told what to do for 20 years straight on everything I do. So now I have the ability to come up with an idea and I struggle with that. So, in it, um. Yeah, so it's, it's nice to have a little bit of guidance and a little bit of structure, and then, you know, wean yourself off of that. But that's. I think the ambiguity aspect has been the hardest, hardest part for me to deal with because I had that structure. And then I come into a workplace where they're like, here's our mission. Figure out a way to get it done. And it's. It's kind of funny because in the corporate workspace, we promote an environment of just the opposite, because if we aren't ambiguous and we don't let you operate to your own skillset and the way you want to do things to get the job done, it's seen as micromanaging. And that's to non military personnel, of course. So if someone came to me, someone who's not been in the military, and started telling me what to do at every point of the day, giving me that structure, I'd be like, I want to quit. I don't want to be here. And so I experienced the same thing on the flip side of it, which is why I'm glad that we're chatting about it, where some of the guys, one of which has been on the podcast before, in the early days of our podcast, when they came to work with me at the AWS data centers, I was trying to be a good manager to them and saying, like, hey, go forth and fix things. And they were. And, you know, they didn't want to let me down. And there was all these sorts of emotions on their end of, like, oh, crap, how do I do this? But then they were feeling lost, they felt uncomfortable. And when we had those discussions to unearth that. That feeling and that problem of ambiguity, then I was able to actually meet them halfway and, like, help coach them out of it. But, yeah, it's a. A real problem that I don't think many people acknowledge or know about that it's something to worry about, you know, because we're trying to do the opposite of, like, we don't want to baby you and make you feel like we don't trust you, you know? So. Yeah. Okay, so that's a good one. Thank you for bringing that up. What's. What's next on your list? Because we did prepare a little we did prepare a little bit before this podcast. What's next? Well, you know, I guess this will lead into our. Into what's next on the list is part of dealing with ambiguity, too, can be difficult because I suffer from traumatic brain injury and PTSD. So my. That can affect cognitive abilities, and a lot of times it affects my short term memory. So I'll be in, you know, a meeting and they'll put some word out or, you know, whatever, and. But I'll have to wait, stop an email and be like, hey, could you send me the notes again on this meeting? Because I honestly can't remember or my notes aren't making sense or I don't remember where I was going with this note I took. You just send me some bullet points. And that's so going into those invisible disabilities that come with having veterans on the team, especially if there's been, if you're a veteran who's been enlisted or active duty within the last 20 years. You know, we were at war for 20 years. And so you figure pretty much every veteran has gone over into a combat zone or had to deal with something that's affected them, where they deal with PTSD. So it's that those invisible disabilities, it's hard because a lot of civilian managers look at it as a. I mean, I see TBI moment right now. I'm forgetting the word I want to use. Okay. A gap or a. Like a performance issue. That's what I'm looking for, like a performance issue. Right. And it's not a performance issue. It is a. It is a disability. So veterans, you know, it helps to have tools to help them with those disabilities. And, you know, my first team I was on, I struggled quite a bit with that. And, you know, some of the senior leadership in that team didn't want to be educated on what it meant to have this type of invisible disability. They wanted it. They wanted to just keep saying it was a performance issue. And it was very, very frustrating for me, very hard to deal with, which is really glad I got into the new team I'm in. But, you know, it's very, it can be very hard, and that can be very emotionally damaging to veterans when you can't get people to understand what. What you're going through or they don't want to understand it. And that's. Yeah, that's hard. It's a challenge, for sure. Yeah. No, I can't. I can't even imagine. Like, I can do my best to empathize, but, yeah, not having been through it, I can't imagine what that's like. And it must be so frustrating, though, you know, and that's why, you know, towards the end of this, as we move further into the episode, we're going to talk about what people in my shoes can do to support people, veterans that are coming in and may have these disabilities and, you know, concerns and issues and worries that they don't actually need to disclose or share with you. Right. So how can we talk about how we as a non veterans can support people, whether we know or don't know these things? So, yeah, thanks for sharing that, man. I know it's not easy for you, so I appreciate it. Now, the last thing on your list that you wanted to bring up as well had to do with the challenges that veteran family members face. So why don't you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, that's a big one. So, I've been married 18 years now, and, you know, we have to move a lot in the military, so every. Every time I got new orders, we had to pick up and move across country. And every time we moved, my wife would have to quit her job and then try to find another job. My son would have to go to a new school, you know, every three to four years. Three to four years, my son's in a new school. So you never get that set of friends that you grow up with, you know, that you can go to and trust because you're always picking up and moving. And my wife, she's never been able to have a career where she can grow at a company because we have to pick up and move, and the company wouldn't keep her hired on until now that I'm retired from the military. Now she can be in a company and grow, but I feel like I've put her 18 years behind in her career path because of being on active duty and having to pick up and move. And then, you know, same with. With our child. You know, they're. They've had to struggle with going into new schools and losing their friends, which is, you know, that's hard to. That's like a loss. Right. Picking up and moving, so you're losing those set of friends, and I have to go find new ones. So that's been very difficult on. On my family. So that's. Yeah, so there's a lot of. And there's, you know, then challenges of being gone for six to eight months at a time, and now that I am not. I am retired. It's kind of funny. I'm home all the time. My wife is like, when are you gonna leave again? Because you get into that. You know, you get used to that rotation. I was gone probably, um, I was usually gone 250 to 300 days a year sometimes, and that's. That's when I'm. But that's when I'm home, not even deployed, so. Wow, you're gone. Yeah. You're gone a lot, so. Yeah, so they get used to that. And it's. And then coming home and having to reintegrate back in the family when your spouse has been running the household a certain way, and you. You try to come in and just pick up where you left off. Doesn't work like that. You get your butt kicked. Yeah, you do. Yeah, you do. Oh, man. Yeah. These are things that you kind of hear about from tv, and, you know about these at a very surface level, but when you hear it like this, it's actually, you know, I sit there and I struggle with a two week business trip being away from the kids. Right. I can't imagine, man, like, 300 days a year. Um, just incredible. So, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And, actually, if you don't mind me asking, and you can feel free to say no, and I'll leave it in the podcast. Um, how do you. How did you feel like, about this, where. Because you're putting that pressure on, uh, your. Your career choice here is obviously having that impact on the family, as you said. So how does that impact you? It's. You're putting a lot of pressure, like, on yourself to make sure that you're. You're living up to the expectations of your family members, which can be hard because it's. It's a lot of stress. I'll put it that way. It's a lot of stress. It's been. It's been nice since I retired, not having to be gone all the time and being able to be home and have, like, a job where I'm just home, you know, not having to pick up and leave in two years or a year or leave for six months at a time. But it was very stressful when I was retiring because it, you know, even though it. It didn't, I felt like. Like the weight of the family was on me to find a job, you know, because it's hard to. I'd never done a job interview until I retired from the military. My first job interview was, whoa, a year and a half ago. Wow, man, that would have been scary. As to. It was super scary, because you're trying to. You're trying to translate everything you've done into civilian terminology, and then what I've learned, what I learned with job interviews is they want to hear about what you did, right? What did you do? What did you accomplish? What impact did you make? Well, in the military, you don't think like that. You think as a team, we did this, we did that, we accomplished this, you know, we successfully completed this mission. We brought everyone home. Job interviewers don't want to hear that. They want to hear what you did. So it was hard to kind of translate that. Okay, well, how did my role and what I was doing impact the team to make it, you know, successful? And it was just whole shifting my whole train of thought on how I spoke to my experiences in the military. That's tough. That's also a good lesson, I think, for all of us, everyone listening, including recruiters. Right. Is that, take that into account when you're talking with them, that when they say when veterans might be, people like you might be saying we in your interview, give them that chance and say, hey, you're saying a lot of. So, like I always say, the greatest interviews become conversations and you feel like you're just hanging out with someone and, and talking smack for an hour. Right. Um, about the job. So if you're in that situation and you know that you're looking at this person's cv and it's saying that they just spent 3000 years in the military, be empathetic to that. And I think this is a really great eye opener for a lot of people that, hey, you can have that chat. And if the veteran that you're speaking with is saying we a lot and you're looking for that individual contribution, just course correct them, right? Give them the opportunity. Because one of the things I learned over the years is that a lot of the, the people that I've worked with that are military veterans have been some of the best colleagues and workers that I've come across to the point where, you know, they're super, they've been super reliable, dependable, unlike people like me. Right, where. I'm just kidding. I won't even continue that one. But you know what I mean? So, no, no, I appreciate you sharing that. It's really great, valuable insight, I think, for a lot of people. So do you mind if we jump into the call to action? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. So, everyone, as you know, we like to make these podcast episodes a little more actionable for you. So it's not just a data dump. Isaac's prepared a bit of a list of a few things that maybe we can all do as colleagues and workers and managers and recruiters, and you name it, how we can be a little more inclusive, respectful, understanding, empathetic for veterans that we might come across in the workplace and want to hire as well. So go for it. Isaac, take the stage. Yeah. So this is gather so much to cover here. Did you write them down, at least I'll hit the highlights. I'll hit the highlights. So I will say this. We veterans are very good at getting tasks done quickly and efficiently, but we may not understand how it needs to get done in the corporate world compared to how we did it while we were active duty. So any type of help or advice, especially if a new veteran on the team and they have a new project they've been tasked with or something, just offer your assistance. Be like, hey, in the past, here's a way I prioritize. Something like this or the way I've organized this, this might work for you, you know, and that, that helps because sometimes for me, my organizational skills aren't the greatest, and a lot of that's attributed to, like, the tbIs, but it helps to have that framework to look at something and be like, okay, and then you can manipulate it so it suits you, you know, to, to be able to get the job done. Also, two veterans aren't going to, a lot of times they're going to come out and tell you they may have a disability. They need to build that trust first. So you have to build that trust with them before they open up and kind of tell you a little bit about their experience they had while in the military, and maybe they'll disclose if they have a disability. You know, it's, it all depends on that person. But just be aware, too, that a lot of veterans do come to corporate America with PTSD and traumatic brain injury, and little things can trigger them. And you may not even realize they're triggered, but sometimes you might, and it might be just, hey, you know what? It's cool. Just take the rest of the day because that, you know, someone who's been triggered can spiral downhill pretty quick. I know from experience, so just being, you know, empathetic towards that, you know, like, hey, you know, we under understand, you know, and just offer them support. And it sometimes can be hard. Sometimes they don't want help or they're not going to ask for help. You know, that can be a pride thing, right. That was one of the hardest lessons, and I still deal with it now is like asking for help with something, but just, you know, offer it. And then, like, for the managers out there, like, for me, I tell my manager, hey, you know, every once in a while, just check in on me, make sure, you know, I, I'm working on something we talked about or whatever, because I 100% will forget I even have a to do list. And sometimes I forget to look at my, to do list. So it's always good to have that, like, to, like, get pinged, like, hey, how's that project coming? Or whatever? Did you meet with so and so about this project? And that's just a good reminder. And I don't look at it as micromanaging. To me, that's very helpful because I need it. And, you know, that's so, yeah, I enjoy when people hit me up and they're like, hey, how's this coming along? Have you started it yet? So I like that. But in that instance, you went to your manager, who shout out to your manager, by the way, who's awesome and probably will be listening to one of our first listeners on this with. You took that initiative, right. But that also comes with trust. That comes with the, I guess the experience at that point that you can do that and that helps you in the instance where, say, if someone's the manager of a veteran and it's their very first role out of the military, and they may not feel comfortable, because one of the things that I've been told through other veteran friends is that you kind of don't make waves for your commanding officer or your manager. Right. And that sometimes if you go to them with these things, you can get smacked down. Like, what are you doing telling me about this? You know, you should figure it out yourself. So if some people aren't feeling comfortable talking to their managers, what can. Can you think of a nice way that us as managers who might have veterans working for us, how we can engage our employees a little better to give them that space and that permission? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You know, if you have a veteran on the team and they haven't disclosed to you whether they have a disability or they might not trust you yet, and it looks like they may be having, like, a performance issue, that's the time to start kind of probing those questions, be like, hey, is everything okay? You know, what's going on? Is there anything I can do to support? But it's really valuable to build that trusting relationship, and it can be difficult. I mean, there was a. I heard a senior leader in a meeting. It was brought up that a veteran had people PTSD, and the senior leader was like, well, we all have PTSD. They're just gonna have to learn to live with it. And, you know, that is a horrible thing to say. Horrible thing to say. And, you know, it's like, for me, when I got hired onto this team, me personally, I was like, okay, it's important for me to disclose what's going on with me. So it's not, you know, a surprise when I get hired, you know? And obviously, you know, my manager is amazing. And so when we first met, I disclosed everything to her. I was like, you know, this is. This is me. This is who I am, and this is what I deal with. But here's the passion. Here's what I want to do. And I think being open and disclosing it up front really allowed for that trust to grow, because I was being open and honest, like, hey, this is. I'm not trying to bullshit around here. This is me. So then this is what I deal with on a daily basis. Yeah, no, that's awesome. But. But I can do this. Here are my talents, you know, and, you know, I know for you specifically that your talent list was pretty small. So. Very small. Oh, Jackie. Oh, sorry. I had to take that chance. I had to take it. The opportunity left itself wide open for it. Hey, man, I can type five words a minute. I'm good. Perfect. You'll be perfect to work at pibytes. No, the thing I want to say as well, just to add on to that, if you are a manager or in any position where you're working with a veteran and you want to create this space, do it privately. Take them into an office or get on a Zoom call or whatever, but don't do it in a public audience, like in the lunchroom. That. That's just poor form. You know, give them that privacy and that space to really open up and trust you, and then it'll go a long way and be, you know, actually mean it as well. Don't just do it on surface value. Do it because you actually care about people. So. Yeah, no, that's awesome. All right, what else do you have anything else on the list that people can do to support veterans on their teams? Colleagues? Yeah, just have patience. Really. Patience. Having the patience pays huge dividends, especially when it comes to building that trust and knowing they're a veteran, to be. Be inclusive on things. A lot of, you know, it's. Some environments aren't very inclusive to veterans. Some people have distaste for veterans, you know, so it can just, you know, be open, I think. And I never really appreciated it when I was younger, but, you know, when people, like, thanked me for my service, I've come to realize that really means a lot to me now. You know, just whenever there's a veterans day or, like, we just had Memorial Day over here in the US, which is more about remembering those who've been lost while on active duty. It's really important for me to acknowledge that. And, yeah, I don't know. It means a lot now. And before, I was just, when I was on active duty, I was like, I'm just doing my job. It's, you know, you don't need to thank me. Just, it's just what I'm doing. But now that I'm out, I see it now, you know, from the other side, and it's, I see all the friends I still have on active duty and what they're still going through and hear about all these young people now enlisting and joining and knowing some of them, it goes a thank you. Does a lot. I appreciate that. You know, that's funny. That's the thing I have only really heard on, like, again, you're going to think I'm the biggest uneducated fool, but that's the sort of thing I hear on tv, right? Because I don't live in the States. I don't see any military personnel from the states. So when you hear things on tv or actually, you know, I've heard it through airports in America when I'm transiting through there, and they might say, if we have any active duty personnel, you can. I think it's like, board the plane early and thank you for your service. And I've never quite put the two and two together. Right, because you're thanking them for the sacrifice that they've clearly made, as you've talked about with family, with everything, health and stuff. So it's a really great point to bring up that all of us who work with veterans, regardless of the country that we're in, uh, the sacrifice is still there, and we need to. It's. It can help on the tough days, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's not just of being deployed in, you know, combat zones. It's the sacrifice also, like, being away from your family, your loved ones, um, and, and then coming home and doing it over and over again, you know, it's, they sacrifice, too. And it's. Yeah, it's, it's neat. And that's. Veterans from, like, any, any country thank them. I know for us it's voluntary. Some countries it's not. But still, the fact that someone served, you know, and put their life on the line for the country, I think, is a, it's a big deal. And I never realized it until, you know, until I got out. I just was doing my job. I didn't look at it like that, but, you know, now I, it kind of hit home. And I retired. I was like, you know what? I still thank all of my friends that are on active duty for what they're doing, for still being in. You know, they're still crushing it, so I love it. Yeah. Just. Just be open and patient and listen and to. Sometimes veterans just want to talk like they'll be going through something. And part of dealing with PTSD or whatever they're going through, just talking, inventing, you know, getting out, just like anyone, just, you know, let's be someone that they can build that trust in your relationship so they can. You can just listen. Yep. And then you'll learn a lot, too. You learn a lot about them once you build that trust. Yeah, it's a lot of. It sounds to just, like, be a decent human being, mate. Exactly. Exactly. Which makes me. Which makes me reflect on our friendship because I'm like, hmm, I didn't know. Half of this stuff you've just talked to that's never come up in conversation. Yeah, there you go. No, that's awesome. And, you know, one thing I'll add is. And I've seen this, I don't know, just correct me if I'm wrong, actually, this. This is live. This is brand new. I would say have taste. Be. Be tasteful if you want to ask questions. Right. Have some tact to it. Yes. Because some things can be triggering. Right. Yes. That. You brought up a good point. I'm glad you did, because I don't know how many times I've been somewhere and someone's like, oh, you're a veteran. What was it like over in Iraq now? How was that? Hmm. Really? Like, never asked that question. Yeah. Like, but, you know, all kinds. Like, people ask some of the dumbest questions that can easily trigger a veteran, and it just blows my mind, you know? And so just. Yeah, don't go. Don't just start asking questions about their deployed time. So you're in a hostile zone. What was it like? Don't. If they want to tell you about it, they will. Yep. Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah, so that. Yeah, that's where I'll leave that. Yeah, no, no, that's fine. There was some. I had one of those moments where, uh, one of the guys just opened up to me, completely unexpected. He was running late, and he felt guilty about that, like, hey, sorry I'm late. I said, I don't get. It's fine, man. And he goes, yeah, I just. Sometimes. And then he opened up about why? Because when, you know, three weeks ago, my life was on the line versus right now, I'm stuck in traffic. It just doesn't bother me compared to that level of stress, compared to this level of stress that we take for granted, you know? So. But, yeah, that came organically. That happened organically. And in the moment, like, I remember when he was saying, sorry, I'm like, I don't know about me. It's fine. I mean, that we're in the middle of stuff. And then when he said that, I was like, full attention. Like, what? What did you just say? You know, and then we had a great chat about it. But, yeah, let I find letting the individual choose when is appropriate for them is key to those conversations. So, yeah. Awesome. All right. Anything else you want to add? You'll never get the opportunity again, I'm telling you. I'll give you a call tomorrow and tell you my last thoughts. I can't edit that in, man. Nice. Why are they wearing different shirts in this episode? They're not even using Zoom this time. What the hell? Very nice. All right, well, look, we like to wrap this up, but first, thank you so much for this, Isaac. I think this might be one of the most serious, thought provoking podcast episodes we've recorded. But I appreciate you opening up. Appreciate everything you do. Have done your service. There you go. First time, I think I've said that before. Thank you for your service. But, you know, just, I appreciate you doing this because I think this will help a lot of people, and I think it's something that we don't really think about or talk about too much, you know, in general. And I don't think we do it enough or acknowledge it enough. But, yeah, before we. We end now, I'm. Now, I say this as a good friend, but I'm assuming you can read. I mean, are there pictures in the book? Because otherwise. Because otherwise, it's just words on paper. Yes, I can read them, too. No. So we love to wrap up every episode with a book. What is it? What is it that we're reading? You and I have talked about. About books to no end before, but what are you currently diving into or about to dive into? So I'm about to dive into this book called Untethered Souls by Michael a. Singer. It's really about fiction. I don't know. No. And, yeah, it's about really diving in and finding your inner self. So one thing that's really helped me with my struggles is learning to meditate and learning mindfulness and really trying to dive deeper into who I am and to uncover some of the things within me and work through those. And this is a book that was recommended to me to help do that. And I'm really looking forward to reading it, actually, because I've discovered probably within the last six months, that the greatest kind of self love you can give yourself is to take that time to just be with yourself and really dive deep to learn who you are as a person. And I'm hoping this book will help me continue that journey because it is. The whole experience has been amazing, especially the learning the art of meditation and how it can just really open you up and. Yeah, it's done a lot for me. That's cool for. So you haven't read it yet? You have. You're about to haven't. I'm about to read it, yeah. So it's right here. Look, here's. Everyone can see it. They even had it ready. I did have it ready. That's awesome. I come prepared. If you want to see what it looks like, you have to watch this on YouTube again. But you have. You can't skip to the end. You got to watch the whole thing. No, this is cool. I've just found it. That'd be cool. I might actually get myself a copy as well and then we can read it together. I can read it to you. Yeah. Draw me pictures, though, so I can understand it easier. Well, no, you can do the meditation while I read it and I'll put my ASMR voice on. Okay. I think take three deep breaths. No, that's cool. I'm going to give it a crack. You can get it. I can have it tomorrow if I buy it right now. I wonder if a company would do that sort of delivery ups. All right. We clearly are too much fun. Okay, well, look, that's awesome. That's a nice balance because currently I'm reading the cat in the hat by doctor seuss. No, no, actually, I picked this up the other day. So I've read this before, the Art of War, as a leadership type book, and it's a leadership book, right? Yeah, yeah. Leadership and business strategy. Anyway, I picked this up. It was on sale. I always buy things on sale. They've created another version of the book, but it comes with these cards. A deck of cards featuring a series of insightful and informative statements from the classic works. So a classic work. And the reverse of each card explains how to use this wisdom. Right. That the book gives out in each chapter, each point. So there's 52 cards in the deck. So I'm hoping that on one day I can sit there and reflect on the cards. The next day I can go and play poker with the cards because if there's, I haven't opened it yet. So we'll see what kind of cards they are. But, you know. Yeah, I'm going to give that a crack. I'm looking forward to that. It's been a while since I've read that book and. Yeah, there you go. Normally I'm sharing fiction, but look, Isaac, again, I can't thank you enough. This was a very special episode for me, and it's just amazing having such a good friend come and share this microphone time with me and give you that chance as well. Is there anything that you want to end with? And also, where can people find you? Because I can imagine people are going to want to reach out to you, at least to see, you know, where you get your haircut, because it's such a damn good haircut. Yeah, that's my buzz cut here. No, thanks, Julian, this has been a pleasure. Hopefully. Hopefully it was insightful and I just didn't sound like I was rambling on about nonsense. No more than me. Yeah. But no, it was. It was a pleasure being on here. Thanks for asking me to do this. It meant a lot, so. Yeah. And I can be found on LinkedIn. Yeah. Isaac Schmidt. Nice. I'll put that link in the chat. In the chat. I'll put that link in the show notes for this. Nice. All right, well, look, man, thank you so much, as always, for your time. Every time I get to hang out with you, I know we're going to hang out next week, but every time I get to hang out with you, it's just always so much fun and always a pleasure. But thank you for bringing all of that wonderful insight to this measly. Not measly, this, you know, very humble podcast led by a. Too humble. No, I'm kidding. But thank you so much. I really appreciate you and your time. Yeah, thanks, Julian. This was legend. Damn right it was. In fact, we're just going to cancel the podcast out of this episode. There's no. It's all downhill from here. All right, everyone, thank you for listening as well. Isaac, take care and hope people will be back next week. You all take care. Enjoy. We hope you enjoyed this episode. To hear more from us, go to Pybite, France. That is Pibit es friends, and receive a free gift just for being a friend of the show and to join our thriving slack community of python programmers, go to Pibytes community. That's Pibit es forward slash community. We hope to see you there and catch you in the next episode.