Our brains are trained to look at faces first. So if you make someone eye blink while someone's making, you know, another character is doing an action that's questionably not going to look great, you can distract from the actual problem and be like, look over here real quick while this mess is happening so that you don't see it kind of thing. And it's kind of just. It's the same thing with like, a value error is kind of how I saw it, because you're basically knowing that there's a potential for a mistake, so you're trying to account for it, even though you know the action still has to occur. Hello and welcome to the Py Bytes podcast, where we talk about Python career and mindset. We're your hosts. I'm Julian Sequeira. And I am Bob Baldebos. If you're looking to improve your python, your career, and learn the mindset for success, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started. Welcome back to the Pybytes podcast. I'm Bob Eldeboz, and I'm here with Julian. Julian Sequeira. How are you, man? Yeah, good. Excited to record this one because we have a very special guest, Sarah Giancarelli. Hi, guys. Hey, Sara. Hi. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, yeah, we've so for everyone. Sarah is part of our pie Bytes community and has been active in our slack and talking about all of her wins lately. And we've had some really great conversations with, with you, Sarah. It's been a wonderful few days, week. I don't even know how long it's been two weeks getting to know you, but we wanted to continue the conversation here so that you could share some of your insights because you have a really unique background. So with that, shall we dive in and get this started? So can you just tell us about you? Just tell us the story. What do we need to know? Well, let's see here. Adult voice. I actually am not a developer. I work as an animation director for Cartoon Network Studios in Los Angeles, California. I pretty hardcore throughout my whole life, followed the artistic kind of artist lifestyle. I went to art school, I came out and pursued animation as my career. So I started, uh, with venture brothers way back in the day. I think it was their season two. And since then have, you know, since, oh, gosh, 15 years now. Gosh, goodness. I have since worked up to. And most recently, a lot of my projects have been the adventure time movies for Cartoon Network, Summer Camp island, we bear Bears. I'm basically an animator. So I understand movement, and my daily job entails I write animation instructions that are then sent to Korea when they go, and they actually focus on the actual animation of the cartoon. So I'm the one who understands the acting, the timing, and just the general pacing of the show. I get to tell Korea how many drawings, how many steps characters take when they hit expressions, all of that really super nitpicky stuff. And Python is actually a creative outlet that I do in my free time to kind of keep my creativity flowing, but still managing to do something different from what my day job is because I feel like there's just a lot of similarities between python coding and the actual creative work that I do. Surprisingly enough. Interesting. I will dive into that for sure. But I have to ask, what got you into Python? Well, oddly enough, I was one of those kids who grew up mostly with that pre Internet age. I didn't start to have Internet access until maybe 7th or 8th grade. And it was one of those things where I had some friends be like, hey guys, we're going to go on to geocities and make fan pages for Leonardo DiCaprio and Titanic, because that's what excites us right now. And that's where my coding journey started. Because while I didn't make a Titanic fan page, I did start to learn how to make web pages and doing HTML and CSS in my free time. And that was something that I just kind of did for fun outside of artwork, outside of school homework. And it just something that stuck with me for a long while. And as I grew older, one of my other projects, and this will sound really funny, but I landed a gig first, a freelance gig for a while where I was a chocolate taster, and that required me to become familiar with a SQL database. So I had to do blog posts and tastings and do category and like kind of categorize everything in a SQL blog. So I was dealing with MySQL for a few years while I. Because aside from the horribly difficult job of, you know, getting free samples, having to taste chocolate, I had to write reviews of them and then kind of categorize them inside the SQL database that for the company that I was doing it for. So there's always been these little moments where I would have code kind of appear in my life where I would just kind of dabble in it and get familiar enough with it to kind of understand what was going on and everything. And it was actually a co worker of mine who is also in PDM right now, he introduced me to Python because I knew that there were a bunch of different languages, like, you know, c, C sharp, JavaScript, you know, just all the big names. But he was the first one who pointed out the power of python to me, and I loved how it's very artistic. The Python of code is very simple, very minimal. You want clear, concise, and a lot of it is just rules that really pertained also to animation. So that was something that kind of immediately drew me into it because it's like it was just such a natural kind of marriage of the two kind of formats that made it make sense in my mind. So it was really easy to jump back into coding, having something that felt so familiar I should have. Right. That's such a great story. Thank you. It's kind of funny how life kind of weaves its way like this. Yeah. And, but you know what, I'll point out here for everyone and just pick it. Pick out that story a little bit. So I'm going to start with the chocolate because that is amazing and I'm super jealous. Sql and chocolate, you have to give us. That is totally something for a t shirt. Sql and chocolate, I don't know. We'll figure that out. But what I really liked is that, you know, you had this natural progression to your career, and this is something that we love to talk about on the podcast. And people in general is showing that it's not a linear path for many people who are using Python or have built that passion for Python. Uh, so, you know, you started the same way I did, which I love that story with the geocities, except mine was angel Fire. I use an angel fire. Oh, you were angel Fire. I was a rebel. And, you know, and then you started moving to little other things and you use that experience as some confidence boost, I guess, because when you moved into the SQL chocolate role, if that's what we'll call it, you know, you got to play with it. And there was already experience with some semblance of programming there. And, you know, it just was a natural move for you. The other important thing is that you were introduced to Python by, by your colleagues. So shout out to Ed for that. Very cool, Ed. Thank you for that, Ed. We love you, Ed. But that came through talking to people, and this is something we talk about all the time. You know, you have to get out there, talk to people, network. Don't be afraid to build relationships because it opens all sorts of doors. And for you, that was not just getting to know Ed, but also learning some python and being exposed to that and that's really, really cool. So I'll stop there and I'm going to ask you another question. So you hinted towards a link similarity, especially from a creative perspective, and you being an animation director, super creative, and working on adventure time, one of my favorite cartoons. Very cool. How do you, where do you see the similarities between animation and coding? Oh, my goodness, there's so much overlap. One of the first ones that immediately come to mind is just the manner of the problem solving. Because programming, especially in Python, is all a puzzle. And it's not just you want to get it to work, you want it to also adhere to the rules of the pythonic code. You know, you want it clear, concise, beautiful, simple. It's very similar with animation in that you want things like the simpler and the more clear you can make them, the better. So when you're approaching a puzzle in animation and in Python, you know, because it's creative, it means that there are a bazillion right answers and not really any wrong answers, and that can be really paralyzing. Because just because I decide to solve this python code or this animation movement in one way doesn't mean that my supervisor would solve it that way, it doesn't mean that my colleagues would solve it that way. It gives you your own unique expression within the code, and you only. No one else in the world is going to code Python like you do. And it's the same thing with animation. And you kind of have to trust in your gut and in your. In your own self confidence and experience to be able to assert yourself in that way, to be able to write that code out and stand behind it, or to plan that action out and to know, like, it will read in the way that you expect the audience to. And again, just because someone else does it differently doesn't make it wrong, doesn't make it bad. It's just knowing your own voice on how you're going to communicate that code to others or that action to others. And that's. That's one really big. And you have to always keep that in mind, too, because, again, that's. It's so hard to not be paralyzed by that, because it's. It's such a big decision, you know, in you. And being able to keep the big picture in mind is something that's really helpful for that. So that's one similarity that I see. Um, another similarity is because of that massive correctness that can be many decisions. It's really easy to get imposter syndrome because you can look at someone who's been doing this for five years more than you have, and you can see how they solve the problem and go, oh, I didn't think to do it that way. Why did I not think to do it that way? And it really can erode your self confidence when it really shouldn't. It's just, you know, you have to look at those things as learning opportunities to get better and to see a different perspective than it is to kind of bring yourself down with it. And that's another thing that I think with a creative mindset is really easy to do. So a lot of it is, oddly enough, emotionally driven, I want to say, but it's rewarding in that way because, you know, you have that freedom to code Python the way you want. You have that freedom to animate the thing the way that you want, and you know that the outcome will be the same, but it's your own unique expression and interpretation of said thing that allows you to kind of, you know, really own it. That's awesome. That's interesting, because the Zen of Python says, like, there should be one obvious way of doing things, but if you look at different people's code, there's definitely a style or creativity going on that there are many ways of doing it, and people are creative in how they solve problems. Yeah, this kind of makes it more apparent how you describe it. I didn't really think that much about the creativity, the role of creativity in this. And. Yeah, certainly true. That's why I really love when you solve, like, different bytes that you guys have available on your website. You have the forum feature once you solve it, and you're able to see, like, how other people tackled the same problem, because you'll see a lot of similarities, you'll see a lot of differences in how people decided that they wanted to solve it. But it all, you know, even just looking through that, it all gives you ideas and just further thoughts for, like, moving forward of how, you know, because one way might be better for a certain type of thing. It's kind of, you know, it builds on. It's kind of. I'm trying to think of how to explain it. It's kind of like becoming good enough to understand the difference between what, for example, something I just learned earlier today, like why flask and why Django is different for coding because, you know, it's depending on the big picture, but technically, both could do the same job. It's your creative call to figure out which one you think is better for your project. Yeah, that's. It's some really good insight there. And it's like, I imagine it's very similar to that challenge that you get when someone asks you, hey, could you solve this problem with Python? And then you think, oh, crap. Because you've been given free rein, you haven't been told, use this, use this, use this, use this. You can think of 10,000 ways to solve that problem using Python. Do you want to make it a script? A web app? Do you want to do it? Using which framework are you going to use? All of those different options that you have in front of you. And so that leads me into the next question, which was, what influence does your creativity? Being a super creative person, what influence does that have on your coding abilities? Well, I think being someone who has already worked and works a lot in a creative mindset, coding felt very natural to fall into because it was a very similar thought process where you're presented with a problem, but you know that there's lots of different ways of solving it, and it's a puzzle. And I think that's part of why the creative mindset works so well with coding, is because it's a puzzle. And being able to figure out that puzzle is where I think that creativity comes in. And I'm still a novice at Python, I'd say. So part of where that creativity comes in is I feel like there's two parts to a creative mindset, where one is you're like a sponge you have to take in in order to be able to put out. And I think part of what the fun of coding for me right now is and getting that creativity is being able to absorb the information to see how other people are solving these problems, to see how people are using Python for certain applications, and being able to absorb and internalize that, and then being able to make my creative decisions on how I would put that code into practice. And I think a lot of that is similar to, again, my workflow, because, oh, gosh, it's so terrible when I feel like my creativity is depleted. It's really awesome to go watch a cartoon or to look at some old work of a coworkers and be able to kind of leaf through the frames and see how they animated something particularly well or how they sold a joke really well in the way that they made the character move. And then that way I can kind of internalize that and then be able to apply that to my work. And, I mean, granted, you can't just go and watch a cartoon and learn python, but, you know, the premise is the same where you can still dive into a book, you can still watch, you know, watch a how to video, read an article and be able to internalize and then make that creative decision on how you feel like is the best way for you to tackle that puzzle. Awesome. So it's actually getting you unstuck because I can imagine people new to python just keep on going and banger in their heads again to wall. And this creativity actually gives you some diversity and actually gets you unstuck then as well, right? Oh, definitely. That's one of the biggest things I would recommend is if you feel stuck or if you feel lost, try to do some research. It just is a. I think it's a sign that you need to step away and figuring out a way to inspire yourself again. Whether learning something new, whether it's listening to music for a little bit, just something to get you excited, feeling again, so that you're open to tackling that puzzle again. Because so much I feel like a creative output is inspiration and that is a process that has a lot of ebb and flow to it that you cannot control. So learning things that can make you feel like you are more adept at handling a puzzle is going to only help you. That is cool. Actually, you know, you've got me thinking. I'm just picturing this here. When, when you're doing your animation work, I'm now drawing all these similarities and comparisons to us being in a coding sprint or deep in coding or something, right? Especially how you just said, you go and look at other people's work, that's the equivalent of us looking at other people's code and oh wow, that's how they did that loop or that's how they sorted this out. Right. I think that's amazing. That's really cool. And it's uplifting to hear this happening in other industries as well. But I'm just picturing when you're in your animation sprint, when you're working and you're really in the zone, do you have big headphones on, music blasting, that sort of thing? Sometimes it's really weird, it changes sometimes day by day, hour by hour. Some days I need complete silence in order to work. Other days I need to, you know, figure something out. Like, I don't know, not classical music, but something ambient playing in the background. And other days I find like there's a song that I just catch on and it's super obnoxious and I just have that thing on loop for 8 hours. It can really change depending on what my mood is, what kind of vibe I'm getting from the work that I have to accomplish that day, because sometimes you have sad scenes to do and trying to listen to, like, EDM while you're animating a depressed character doesn't really translate very well. But, you know, I think that's a really good point, Julian, because I think with creative mindsets is, even though I understand the need to put out and the need to be creating code and writing code, sometimes you really have to honor the fact that you're feeling stuck. And that's knowing that that's an okay part of the process that, you know, because even though you may say, like, I have another 15 minutes before my timer goes off and that's when I can take my break. But if you're really stuck, like, sitting there, trying to force that for the next 15 minutes is just not going to serve you. So I think a lot of it is just understanding how intensely the well of your creativity is flowing at that moment. Sometimes it's a river. Sometimes you can't get the levee is dry, you know, and you just kind of have to honor. Honor that, because creativity and inspiration are definitely not eternally flowing resources. So talking a bit more about the creative mindset, how can people get into it? And what does a creative mindset even look like? That's, you know, it sounds like a tricky question, but it really isn't. It's really as simple as listening to your emotions. I know, like, feelings and all that, but pay attention to what makes you excited. That's where your creativity comes from. If it's. If you're really into, you know, trying to code for video games, or if you really like to do databases, or just listen to the stuff where you get really excited and you feel like you're producing your best work, or the puzzles that perhaps feel the most rewarding to have solved once you've gotten past them. When I first started learning what my workflow for my job was like, I would. Anytime I felt like I did an action or delivered a joke really well, I would. Cause my work is completely analog, so I'm still writing pencil on paper, at least pre pandemic anyways, and I would take it over to the copy machine and I would copy it, photocopy it, so I would have a copy of it to kind of refer to moving forward and being like, I did that really well, and that worked really well. And that would give me confidence. It would help me feel confident. And then feeling confident makes you feel excited about tackling more projects and getting better. And I think that excitement really just completely snowballs over time, and it allows you to trust your confidence more, it allows you to trust your decisions more, and that excitement just leads you to making better and better creative decisions. And I think that that's kind of the best way to keep your brain and keep your mind in a creative manner because it really is all about in a way, like, you got to keep it fun. That's really the core, I think, of what creativity kind of feeds off of is people can tell when you're having fun doing something. And I think, again, that feeds the excitement. I think that feeds the confidence, and I think that feeds your motivation just to keep going. Yeah, I completely subscribe to that, and I want to subscribe to your newsletter. It's so true. That's what anything, the passion, the enthusiasm, it all comes through. If you're actually enjoying it, you're having fun. And you found that sort of, I guess, well, of creativity, right? So, I mean, my most creative is when I'm working with, with Bob, when I'm working with you, man. You know, like when, when we're on a sprint and we're talking and we're having a bit of fun while we do it and mucking around at the same time, that's when we, we get our best work done. And so on Monday, especially on Mondays, when you ignored me for the weekends. Yeah. After two days off. Uh, and, and that's, that's how we, that's when we get our best work done. And we actually found, and I love that you mention it, you know, come back to that, because when we start, when we started straying from that sort of, you know, I guess, situation that would get our best results out, we noticed a sudden dip in, you know, our own sort of productivity, in our own, I guess, creativity with the ideas we were spitting out and so on and so forth. And that's why we pulled ourselves back into that. So we get all of our best work done at the start of the week. We noticed that as well, right. When things are a bit dry or we're losing motivation, a bit of burnout, often we come back and we say, well, actually, we should do this and add some more fun. And then, you know, that creativity and motivation instantly comes back. Yeah, perfect. All right, so what I wanted to jump into now then, was given we're talking about the creative mindset for you. I reckon you would have some unique insight here. A lot of the blocks that we hit as programmers is being stuck in essentially tutorial paralysis, getting stuck in the overwhelm of having too many options in front of us potentially. And we tend to overthink things. We tend to try and get distracted from the goal here and think about all the crazy things that need to happen to solve this problem or to reach a solution with the creative mindset in mind. How do you handle this overthinking? That's a very good question. I think there's a lot of tools that we have as creative individuals to kind of tackle that kind of stuff. I think the first would be is if you're encountering a problem and you're noticing that you're getting stuck on it, it's wonderful to try and figure it out because that's, that's always the goal, is you want to be able to solve it. But I know I have a thing where if I stick on a technical problem too long, like if I'm looking at a character who has to pick up an object and then walk six steps to off screen, and I have two, like only half the time to do it, and you're just like, I don't know how to, how to do this. It's never, never, never, never, never. You're never above asking for help because you have colleagues, you have supervisors, you have a mentor, you have an accountability partner. Creativity is not a path that you do alone. You have to have an arsenal of people that you can rely on for advice and opinions and to ask for help when you need it. Because doing a creative job or a creative workflow is a lifelong career. Depending on whenever you pick it up, whether you do it right out of school or you pick it up later in life, you're always going to have to learn and you're always going to be finding yourself in places where you're going to be uncomfortable and unsure of what to do. So never be afraid of asking for help. If you find that you're stuck on something for too long and over time, granted, every puzzle you're going to encounter is never going to quite be the same, but what's going to happen is that you're going to start to build confidence in the decisions that you have been making and the creative calls that you have been making. So being able to know that you have a group or a person or persons, coworkers, whatever, to ask for help. And if you don't have that, it's always okay to just leave it and move on. Because I find that some problems that I cannot figure out in the moment, if I make sure I take a break or if I just continue on in a different part of the project. Coming back to it, even like a half of a day later, you know, you'll. You'll hit a moment of inspiration and you'll be like, oh, that's what I needed to do. And it'll just, the answer will just often appear to you, and a lot of that is just kind of how it works. I wish, I wonder if there's, like, even a name for it and how that works, but it's kind of amazing. I think it's the diffused mind. I think mine of numbers that, like, your mind is always working. So if you're not actively working with the left side, then I think taking that break or, you know, relax, then the mind will just continue working in the background. And we don't know that. So it's always more tempting to keep hitting your head against the wall, but it's actually not how it works. Well, yeah, from the, from the book, why we sleep. Who's that? Matt Walker, right? Yeah. He talks about the fact that your mind can't link to your previous experiences until you get good enough sleep. I'm really generalizing here, but when you get that deep sleep, your mind is actually able to link and commit what you learned in that day since you last slept, to your prior experiences, to your memories. And that's why when you come back the following day, this is what he says in the book, at least when you come back the following day, you can suddenly solve it because you have linked the problems of that present day to your history, and you can suddenly find those links and relations. So, yeah, we love that technique of just walking away. It also feels good, right. To just say, you know what? Bugger this. I'm going to go watch some tv or I'm going to go have a shower or something, you know? So we love that as a productivity technique. So this is really great. I'm loving hearing all of these things because it's very similar to the stuff we've been talking about for a while. And very cool that you do it for a completely different industry and completely different field. I think it's amazing. Yeah. It's funny how there's so much crossover, right? It was really something that struck me the more I practiced with Python, where it's just like, wow, it's so similar in practice and in theory to what it is that I do, even though the output is completely different. And that makes me think of another thing where I think with code as is with what it is that I do, we're both really in the weeds. I mean, after hours of looking at lines of code or, you know, myself looking at lines where I'm marking drawings and stuff, like, everything starts to look the same after a point. And that's another reason why breaks are so important, is because you. It's like driving for hours, you know, like, you have to get from point a to b. There's a part in which you start to zone out and you start to not notice the signs for exits anymore. And you're like, well, did I just pass main street? I don't know. I'm just driving because that's what I have to do for my job right now. And being able to step out for a break gives you that perspective again, because then when you are stuck and when you are dealing with something that you're trying to actively figure out, that break gives you the clarity. And, you know, you start to see, like, oh, there's a rose in these weeds that I didn't notice. And you're able to be able to more objectively see what it is that you need to accomplish once you return and you're starting to have fresh eyes on the puzzle. Interesting. And would that also help with perfectionism? Because, again, imagine with art and same with coding. You can just go so far by making a code absolutely sublime. And the same would be true with any kind of creativity, any sort of painting or I did some portrait work and can get pretty pedantic very fast. So is that also a good solution, to just step away, to also beat that perfection? Isn't that so common? Yes, I agree. Perfectionism is something that I struggled with and I still struggle with for a very long time, because, you know, I don't know if you guys feel like, if it's the same way with the coding community, but there's so much competition in animation, so much competition, because you're always going to be surrounded by someone who can time better than you, storytell better than you, draw better than you, time manage better than you. And trying to accomplish that and be that for everything is just. It's impossible. And you have to realize there's a place that, you know, it has to be good enough. You got to be good enough. You have to prioritize what works and what is the most important thing, like getting your deadline met versus, hey, this eye blink didn't look great that I did two days ago, and I need to dig back and fix it because I all of a sudden decided it wasn't perfect. Like you. You have to get to a point where, again, you're confident that what it is that you're putting out is good enough, and knowing that the audience, or in your case, the computer, as long as they understand it, they're going to accept it. They're not going to be looking at it and being like, I think that person should have used a while loop instead. And, you know, you have to realize that it's not going to happen. The computer won't judge you, just like audiences won't judge you if something is a little off or a little weird. So kind of having that knowledge in your pocket is something that I found to be really helpful because it kind of takes the pressure off to know that no one else is going to be looking at this with the attention to detail that you are. Thats actually really good insight for all of us as developers as well, because we get so caught up in those details. A lot of our end customers and end users couldnt give a crap. Watching the cartoons that youve been talking about, ive never even given 2 seconds thought to how long did it take that character to walk off screen or to animate from a to b? Never once thought about that stuff. But it's amazing to think that this is something that means so much to you and could definitely catch people in your position up and get you stuck for hours on end. So that's a really good comparison. I think that's amazing. It's funny because this will make me sound so nerdy and I really apologize. But with the intro byte, no, sorry. Beginner byte ten, the one that raises value error made me think of a thing that we do in animation where because, you know, errors and loops, loopholes and everything happen in code all the time, and you kind of have to prepare for those. Well, things like that happen in animation, too, where sometimes an action has to happen and you're not totally confident that it's going to work, and you're just like, how am I going to, you know, you're sitting there and you're crossing your fingers and you're like, well, I hope that Korea makes the right decisions with this, but we don't pay them to think for themselves. So you're just kind of crossing your fingers and hoping you can do things like, oh, if there's other characters in the scenes, you can give them an eye blink because our brains are trained to look at faces first. So if you make someone eye blink while someone's making, you know, another character is doing an action that's questionably not going to look great, you can distract from the actual problem and be like, look over here real quick while this mess is happening so that you don't see it kind of thing. And it's kind of just. It's the same thing with, like, a value error is kind of how I saw it, because you're basically knowing that there's a potential for a mistake, so you're trying to account for it, even though you know the action still has to occur. It's really weird when I see these, like, things kind of happen congruently. Sorry. Just changed how? We'll look at exceptions from here on. Link of the eye. Yep, exactly. And I don't know, but you may have ruined cartoons for me. So every time I catch my eye looking somewhere else, I'm going to rewind and say, what did I just miss? Just cost another 20,000 rewinds for Julian. I'm going to be late to every meeting from now on. Why? I was rewinding every cartoon I've ever watched. No, that's awesome. All right, so look, we'll end it there. But one other thing, actually, I just thought to ask you was, so what are you doing with Python right now? What's driving you to dive into it? Just out of curiosity. It's really just something that's fun for me right now, because, granted, I feel like a lot of the creative outlets that I've had, I've always been absolutely fascinated with code. I like how you have to be in a certain mindset for it. I like the rules that you have to function because computers won't think for themselves. You have to think like a computer and then out think the computer in order to make the code run, which is a really interesting thought process that I enjoy. It's really kind of sneaky, and I like that. So with that in mind, I feel like, especially with the pandemic going on, like, a lot of the things that I would be doing as a creative kind of outlet for my free time really got curtailed or just eliminated. So Python is a really easy thing, and it's a very valuable skill, and especially with my work, because pre pandemic, it was all analog, and now the pandemic is forcing it to become digital. So that makes me think, well, what openings potentially in the future, now that my process is becoming digitized, could I make easier with things like programming? I haven't found an answer to that yet, but, you know, who knows what the future holds? So I figure learning coding in combination with what my line of work is could potentially create opportunities to find ways of working smarter and not harder to be able to take things like Python, which are, again, something I already innately enjoy, and being able to apply it to my workload in the future. You know, it's like, why not take that chance? It seems like there would only. There would only be positive things happening, and if nothing ever manifests, I also learn how to code. There's really kind of no downside. Not a bad skill these days. Yeah, right? So it just seemed like a possibility that could kind of come together in the future, but for now, I'm just kind of. It feels nice to be able to be productive and to learn a new skill that kind of makes you feel like you're really doing something challenging and different, but also scratches that creative itch that you get as a creative thinker, where you want to be solving puzzles, you want to be excited about stuff, and you want to be keeping that momentum going, which is more similar we learned today than we thought. Yeah, it's weird, since being able to do, like, pie bytes and everything. Like, I don't really find myself sketching in a sketchbook in my free time. I'm much more apt to read an article on Python, practice coding. There's just something about it that seems to fuel and replenish my creative reserves more than doing stuff that's just too similar to what it is that I do for my work. It's really bizarre, but it's also magic at the same time. Nice. That's funny, because I would. Most people, I think, would do the opposite. Right. They code every day. I just want to get away from the computer and start sketching or drawing a picture or doing something. So that's cool. No, I love it. And this has been such a great conversation. I know we could chat for hours on end, and we have already prior to this, but. So anything that you wanted to add to this, is there anything. Where can people find you anything like that? Well, if you. If you want to find me, the best place is. I don't tend to dabble in social media much, but every artist has to have an Instagram, so you can find me on Instagram. It's my name. Sarah underscore Jencarelli. I throw my doodles, sketches, whatever nonsense that I feel like is worth putting out into the world up there. Probably the best way you can reach me there. Other than that, I kind of. I lurk a little bit on the slack. Slack. Piebite slack. But, yeah, feel free to say hi if you. If you feel like you need to have some artistic fun times. Oh, yeah, yeah. We talk about all sorts of stuff. Cartoons is great. Cool. Well, that's it. So, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. This was an amazing conversation. I hope everyone listening got something out of this as well. I thoroughly enjoyed this, so once we stop recording, I'm just going to keep talking, but thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. This has been a lot of fun. All right, well, thank you so much, guys. I'm really excited that you're completely tickled that you guys felt that my perspective on things was worthwhile to talk about and explore. So thank you for your time. Thanks. Arithmetic has been amazing, Chad. Really eye opening, and I really enjoyed it. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode. To hear more from us, go to Pibyte Friends, that is Pibit es friends, and receive a free gift just for being a friend of the show and to join our thriving slack community of python programmers, go to Pibytes community. That's pibit es community. We hope to see you there and catch you in the next episode.