And you see that same intense focus on their craft. And it's just amazing, the similarities. It's like so many common denominators you can see when you see a top performer like that. There's just so many common denominators and certain traits that they'll have that it's why they are who they are. Hello and welcome to the Py Bytes podcast, where we talk about Python career and mindset. We're your hosts. I'm Julian Sequeira. And I am Bob Baldebos. If you're looking to improve your python, your career, and learn the mindset for success, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started. Welcome, everybody, to another episode of the Pyewites podcast. Happy to have you here today. I got a very special guest with me, Drew Kerr. Drew, welcome to the show. How you doing, Bob? Thanks for having me, man. Really appreciate it. Yeah, we're super stoked to have you here. Why don't you introduce yourself to our audience? So I'm drew Kerr from New Orleans. I'm currently living in Austin, Texas. Been coding Python for several years now. I'm self taught and last worked at a digital banking company. Currently working for myself now, focusing on getting my company up, doing consultation and web development. But Python was the language that brought me to programming, was my aha moment. Like, okay, I need to focus on doing this. Yeah, just doing that. Still interviewing with a couple of the big tech companies. And I've also submitted my application for a master's program in data science, waiting to hear back to see if I was accepted. So that's a little bit about me. Nice lot going on and glad to hear that the python was really pivotal, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. When I first started coding, I think I tried JavaScript in Java, and I was like, I don't like how this looks, like just the syntax was so ugly. And I think Python, by it being so readable and concise, it appealed to me, especially as somebody who didn't have a background in programming and so just took it from there. So these days you mostly use Python for the backend, for web development then? Yeah, for sure. I'm dabbling with react now, but I'm doing a project for a client in Gatsby, so that's new for me, but for the most part, just Python. That's my bread and butter. Cool. So today I want to shift a bit more to the mindset and leadership side for developer. So first of all, I just wanted to ask you the question, like, how important is mindset for developer? I mean, apart from the technical skills, where do you see mindset coming in? Mindset is everything, not just for a developer, really anything you're doing in life, everything starts with your mindset. Your mindset is what I think inspires your actions. And then taking consistent action over a period of time is what delivers the effects one seeks. So I think it all starts with your mindset. It's the fuel for actions. And those actions, over time can end up leading to great things. And there we think about persistence, sticking to a goal when things get tough. Yeah. Yeah, you can. You know, oftentimes I think that our biggest enemies are our own selves, you know, and sometimes, you know, we're such harsh critics to ourselves, and we don't give ourselves an opportunity to fail forward and to make, you know, mistakes and to learn from mistakes or just to. Just to learn something. Because when you're learning something new or you're taking on a difficult endeavor, you're going to fail. You're not going to get everything correct all of the time. The thing is, you learn most from your failures. And I think, you know, having a mindset that's open to growth and to truly embracing every step of the process, that's how you truly become great in something. Yeah. It's the fixed versus the growth mindset from Carol Dweck. Right? That's right. That's right. That's right. Very true. So that's a nice segue into another thing we wanted to talk about today is some lessons learned from the last dance, which is a documentary on Netflix about the Chicago Bulls, Michael Jordan basketball. And we are a big fan of that series. I watched it twice. I think you have watched it even more. I think four times. Yeah. You can keep watching it. Right? Yeah. It's even for, you know, I've played sports my whole life, so obviously this was a big part of my childhood and upbringing. I learned tons of lessons through sports. But even if you're not into sports, this documentary is just so well done and it has so many gems in it that I think it's worth watching at least once. Give it a shot. Just watch all ten episodes. You might not like it, but I think, you know, if you, if you truly get what it's made Michael Jordan who he was, you know, you'll, you'll appreciate it. Yeah, it's, it's hard to not recommend it, being a basketball fan, but I honestly think if you're not a basketball fan, per se. Yeah, it's still very worth watch it for. For all the leadership lessons. Absolutely. Absolutely. So. So let's. Let's talk about five lessons. But there's so much we can get out of that series, and the more you watch it, the more you start to notice. Yeah, but, yeah, we. We picked out five. Right. So I think one you already mentioned, and that's failing your way forward. Let's dive a bit deeper into that. Like, how does that work? Why is it. Is it important? Well, for me, you know, and going back to the documentary, he was drafted. Let's not even go start with the NBA. I mean, let's just talk about not making a varsity team, you know, in high school and his mother saying he came home and they both cried because he was so hurt by not making it. You know, having a growth spurt helped him, but he worked so hard for the next year. You know, he took. He took the failure, gave him the feedback he needed, and he took that data and applied it every day as he continued to work and work and work and work. And then by the time he got back, you know, from. Because that was his 10th grade year, he didn't make varsity. He made it his junior year, and he was clearly the best player. And after that, going to a camp at North Carolina, Roy Williams, I believe it was, said he was. You know, not only they knew who he was, but he was, like, the best player in the country in their eyes, after that camp, you know, so just. Just to look at it, that not even two years prior, he couldn't even make his high school varsity team. And, you know, got one of the assistant coaches at an elite program in the country saying, like, we thought you was the best player in the country. Like, that's a very short time span to have such a failure and to progress forward after that failure. So, like, the failure fuels your. Your journey. Yeah, it's. It's. It's, you know, and I think you and I have discussed this before. It's one of those things that you're kind of taught failure is a bad thing, but you really. You really can learn a lot from your failures, you know, and that's. That's what can motivate you to pursue greatness oftentimes. Because you're getting feedback, right? Like, you're getting feedback. Like, every time I've. I've done poorly in a coding interview, I left with feedback from. Not only internally, but from. If the other engineer gave me feedback, they let me know, like, okay, this is what I need to get better at. So now, I have another point to focus on as I'm working. And I think even going back to the documentary, once the bulls start to get some momentum, they ran into the Detroit Pistons, who had a much better team at the time. They were just. Just beating them up, you know, physically and mentally. And I remember after the second loss, that's when the whole team was like, you know what? Like, we're not doing. We're not dealing with this anymore. They wouldn't have taken that mentality had they not failed. Right. And that's one of the things that propelled Michael Jordan to even start lifting weights, because he wasn't really lifting weights like that, you know, but he ended up bulking up. And, you know, just to do that, that gave him the type of frame he was going to need to have a successful career and sustain that success at a high level over the years. So he ended up getting with Tim Grover. And again, all of this was prompted by failure. So I just think the biggest takeaway you can have from that is things aren't going well in your life, or you might be failing at something, you may be disappointed, you're going to be hurt, especially if you want it, you care about it, but don't let that deter you from trying again. You know, you're going to come back better if you want to. I love that example of the pistons. And that was so physical. And they wept off the court. I mean, it was brutal, but yeah, they, from that point on, they seriously started to work on their physique. Well, Michael Jordan, but the whole team. Right. And that was feedback. They. They just didn't know that was a lacking skill. And I guess if you have a stronger, more mascular body, that that results in all kinds of advantages in the sport. Right. So, and again, they ended up winning the championship that next year, that very next year after that loss, they won their first championship. So that was the pivotal moment. Yeah, you never know. You never know. Usually that breakthrough moment is right on the heels of devastating failure setback. But how many people press through? I think that's what separates a lot of people from achieving a certain level of success versus those who don't. Yeah. And I like that link as well to the interviewing. Right. There are many listeners here in our audience that go for coding interviews and fail them because they're inherently tough, especially after do a live coding. And, yeah, it can be very discouraging after five times. Right. This is. Maybe you start to doubt yourself. Like, this is not for me. This is, you know, I picked the wrong profession. But what actually happens is that you're closer than ever, because those feedback loops and what you learned on those interviews actually brings you a lot closer. And you're, it's. You see an enormous leap in your skills, actually, but you might not realize it, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. That's true. Awesome. So let's move on then. The second one you brought up to me was being present, and that was something in the last episode. You want to talk about that? Yeah. So I guess a little spoiler alert for those who haven't seen it. I'll try not to give too much, but the last episode in a documentary starts off with, they're headed, the bulls are headed to the stadium to play the Utah Jazz, and they're on the bus, and Jordan has headphones on. He's listening to new Kenny Lattimore album, and he's just smiling, cracking jokes, shaking his head, whatever. And the narrator was a journalist, if I'm not mistaken. And he wrote a book called rare Air on Jordan, and he was discussing what separated Michael from other elite athletes, in his opinion. And he said the thing that Michael had that everyone didn't was that they were complete. He was completely present in the moment, and he didn't allow the idea of potential failure to creep into his mind. And from there, they transitioned to when they're actually on the court before practice, and they're taking these trick shots. They're practicing trick shots, and it's like a little contest between teammates, and all of the players that went before him were missing. And Jordan's just sitting there chilling, and then he just steps up, drains it. Nothing but net, and just, like, starts laughing and stuff like that. So, yeah, I think. And that's something that is so inspiring to me because he's a person that I've had always had a tremendous amount of respect for just as a former athlete myself, just understanding what it takes to prepare yourself mentally and physically to play at a high level. And to do so over 20 plus years in a spotlight like that, that's just not an easy thing to do. And he did it throughout his college career through the pros. And I think it's such an important lesson to not allow the idea of what may happen to creep into your mind and to just focus on being here now, that's such a strong mindset he had, or still has, probably. But, you know, I'm wondering, how. How do you get there, right? Because it's very easy to have those, those voices in your head, those stories, you know, to allow those in. Yeah, I think. And this is something that I'm working on myself. I think we all need to be more conscientious of the narrative we tell ourselves. Like you just mentioned having those voices in your head that aren't the positive ones. Are we feeding that more than the positive voices? You know, and if we do continue to feed it, we can't expect positivity to produce in our actions because what we're thinking consistently is negative. And I think it takes work, man. I really do. I don't have the silver bullet for that, but I do think it all starts with small steps. And even if it, you know, can start off with doing something as simple as meditating in the morning for ten to 15 minutes and just, you know, giving yourself positive affirmations, I think. I think that's a small start, you know, and every, every, every great journey starts off with a step forward, you know? So you may be able to start off with that and then progress to something great. But I do think just starting small and starting to be more mindful of how we talk to ourselves and what we say to ourselves and what we think of ourselves. I think that's all helpful, man. Yeah, I think that's super important. And there's a great book I tried to google. I couldn't find it, but we'll link it below about the stories we tell ourselves when we talk to ourselves or something. Yeah, I will link it below. And I also like what you said about the affirmations, because we have to always tell it back to ourselves. Right. That we're worth it, that we are indeed very good at something, that we do make an impact, but you have to constantly repeat that to yourself. So the affirmations, if you do that early in the morning, I think that's pretty important. Right? Right. Yeah. Just be mindful of what we're consuming. I know one thing I've been doing a better job of is to not consume things that are going to be detrimental to my mindset one way or another. That may be certain media, for example, because I think, especially in this day and age, with us having devices that we can use to interact with the world on us at all times, I don't think our brains were designed to deal with all of that feedback so often, you know? And I think tuning that out is super helpful. Yeah, we had an episode about distractions a few episodes back, so link to that as well. It's every problematic these days. We're constantly on and we need time with ourselves. We need time to think we need time to study. And, yeah, being consumed by the media the whole time is definitely not going to do you very well. Think of Cal Newport's book digital minimalism, when he talks about that, as well as deep work, which I'm a big fan of, too. But, yeah, just get more. You're just able to get more done when you're not distracted on frivolous things. I think that's. And oftentimes I just take a step back. Like, even if I. If I'm in a public place, you could just, like in a restaurant, for example, I sit at my table, I look around, and everybody has their phones out. It's kind of crazy, you know? Yeah. It's insidious as well, because all these distractions make that you're not making contribution to your bigger goals, which then leads to a lack of confidence, which then mentorship might like. I'm going to miss that shot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Cool. All right. Thirdly, my game is my biggest endorsement. MJ said, that's a good one. That reminds me of the book that you sent me. The most important thing that you and Julian sent, the Gary Keller book. And everything that I loved about that book was just summed up in that one quote, because what Jordan was saying, and this was episode five, if I'm not mistaken, when they were talking about the impact he had on just popular culture with his sneakers and things like that, and he was saying, if I was averaging two points and three rebounds, I wouldn't have had a sneaker. My game was my biggest endorsement. What I did on the court and how I did it is what brought all of that other stuff, you know? And I just think finding that one thing that you need to focus on and doing it so well, to the point where other opportunities open up, I think it's such an important lesson. And I remember, I forgot who came up with the original quote, but they said Michael Jordan played basketball better than anyone else who does what they do at their best, you know, and something to that effect. And I really, I love that quote because when I watch, even now as I'm watching, you know, old highlights of him, he was just so fundamentally sound and just so. It was like perfection. It was like, you know, poetry, emotion. Watching him play basketball, it was like truly a performance, you know? And it just. It's just one of those things that, again, it's easy to lose track of because, you know, we weren't in a gym with him. But if you. If you've ever, you know, taken on a pursuit that you're trying to get better at. You know, it can be difficult to improve your skill set when you start. No. You know, but he just stuck with it. You know? He stuck with it. He stuck with it. You stuck with it. And then all of the other things came along because of that one thing. Yeah. That's amazing. So not only was he the best basketball player, but also, like, exemplary how to respect the craft and to become absolutely the best at it. He was a craftsman. It was. I mean. I mean, we could just, you know, I like looking at that show on Netflix called Top Chef. Not top Chef, chef's table. Chef's table. And that's when they go around the world profiling these world renowned chefs, and you see that same intense focus on their craft. They're just. Their craft is just food. And it's just amazing, the similarities. It's like so many common denominators. You can see when you see a top performer like that, there's just so many common denominators and certain traits that they'll have. That is why they are who they are. We're all born with certain gifts and talents. I'm not saying that Michael Jordan being six foot six, you know, having large hands and explosive leaping ability, that didn't help him. It did. But there are a lot of other, you know, basketball players that had those same traits or better that didn't accomplish what he accomplished. And again, I think it goes back to just perfecting that one thing, you know, sticking that one thing. There's few important things and do them extraordinarily well. Right. And there's a mundane aspect to it. Right. And a lot of that is boring, but they keep putting the reps in, you know? Right, right. Like, it reminds me of that Seinfeld thing we talked about where he wrote. Wrote one joke every day, you know, and that was just a habit of his. And I'm pretty sure more than he's. He probably even liked to admit many of those jokes weren't good jokes, you know, but it's just the repetition of it, just the repetition of it. Just the fact that every single day, this is what I'm doing. And, you know, to bring it back to coding, I've noticed since. I've told myself, okay, I'm a code every day, regardless of how I feel, regardless of if I'm struggling to solve a problem, I'm gonna do a coding problem every day. And I've noticed a vast improvement, how my code is now. You know, I'm able to think through a problem quicker. It's almost instinctive when you start to see certain problems because you've done so many reps, it's like, okay, I know what this is now. Oh, okay, okay. I think I should use this data structure to perform this task and structure it this way. You know, all of that stuff just starts to come with repetition. As before, if you hadn't had those reps, you're sitting there thinking about things and second guessing yourself and end up missing a shot because you haven't put that preparation. Exactly. That's the way to proficiency is simpler. People often overcomplicate it, right. But there's just a few things, and volume speaks. Right. It's a matter of repetition. Right. So shifting gears a bit to criticism at higher levels, you kind of have to expect it, right. Because in this series, there's this, when he got famous, there's a lot of scrutinizing happening, right. About this gambling and stuff and. Yeah. You want to talk a bit about that in the mindset there. Yeah. The one thing I want to point out was when they were playing the Knicks and they ended up losing. They were losing. I think they had lost the game, if I'm not mistaken, and his dad was with them, and he dad, family and friends, they went up to Atlantic City to go gambling after a loss, if I'm not mistaken. And then the next game, they lost two, and the media found out he was there, and they just took it and ran with it. And it's already difficult when you're playing a sport at the highest level, and there's so much on the line, just stepping on a court, competing against another group of individuals who want to take you out, essentially, and to have the media add another element to that, it's just a lot of stress. But again, building off of the last point we made, focusing on that one thing and blocking out those distractions is how he was able to lead his team through that. I think as we advance in our careers and all of the things that we set out to accomplish, the further up you're going, you're going to deal with a certain level of scrutiny that you just didn't see at the previous level. This old phrase that I've heard before is new levels, new devils, and you just have to be able to deal with that because a part, first of all, the reason why you set out to accomplish whatever it is you're accomplishing, you need to remember that first and foremost, because when those, those challenges come and those distractions come you may realize that some of the things you once valued you probably don't value anymore, or it's probably not worth the stress. So you got to ask yourself, what is your, why are you, why are you doing this? And then I think that could kind of, like, center you as you're dealing with the stress that comes with being successful, because there is a stress that comes with that. And if you want to be great, you want to be, let's say, for example, you're a junior engineer right now. You're trying to get your confidence up. You get your confidence up, and then boom, you have your breakthrough, and the next thing you know, you know, you're a lead engineer. And not only are you leading the project, but you have to manage other engineers and everyone's coming. That's a lot more stress than you had at your previous levels. You know, you may be getting paid more, you may be getting more equity, more responsibility and things like that. There's just a whole host of other responsibilities and things that you're going to have to deal with. And I think remembering your why and focusing and hunkering down is what can help you get through that. That's great. I love that. New levels, new devils. That's so true. But also. Yeah, I mean, inevitably you're going to get criticism and you have to kind of deal with that. And they also realize that's just momentarily. Right. It's going to be very painful in the moment, but the next day you wake up and you just forgot about it. Right. It's. It's the mind. There's this bias, right, that things are eternal, but that's. That's not how it works. So you can definitely hack around it. It's just amazing how. How Michael Jordan was able to. To do that, right. It's. Yeah, it was not easy being him at his peak, especially. Like, that was. That was insane, man. That was insane. But it makes. I have so much respect for him handling that, you know, because he never let it take away from his performance on the court, you know? And that's just something that I have to tip my ass. And that's the why, right. Because he then asked himself, well, why I'm doing this? And he only focus was to win that championship. So then the decision became pretty easy. Like, well, that means more training. That means more preparation, right? So then he could. Well, not easily, but that was definitely a motivation to just partly ignore all that stuff around. You just made a great point about the preparation. It made me think about Ray Lewis, who's one of my favorite players from football. And I remember him saying, he said, I know, I know the reason why he was, like, so confident when he played and he played with such an aggression. He mentioned that, how hard he worked. He's like, I know you're not willing to give up what I'm willing to give up for these 100 yards he's talking about on the field. And he just, he worked himself so much, and it was, there's so many stories about his work ethic, you know? And again, it goes back to what we discussed before about that most important thing. You know, if you look at high performers across any field, it could be athletics. It could be like I talked about the chefs. It could be, you know, coding, whatever. You're just going to see that dedication to their craft and to their. To what they're trying to accomplish. You're going to see that over a consistent period of time. And once you start throwing in the compounding effects of that, it's just amazing what can come out of that, but that dedication, not only does it do you get the confidence that you can actually do the work, but it also gives you a confidence when you have to deal with distractions and things that can detract from your performance that, you know what? Despite all of this that's going on, I know I can rise to the occasion, you know? Yeah, that's actually the last point we had. Right. About work ethic. And when he switched to baseball. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Switched to baseball, you know, won three championships, experienced a horrible tragedy, losing his father, and decided to retire from basketball at the peak of his game, you know, and this is Jordan, that this was, want to say, walked away at 94, 93, 94. But, I mean, he walked away from the game at his peak and literally just started over, you know, playing minor league baseball. And the thing that I took away from that was he started off on a 13 game hitting streak in baseball and then got into a big slump because the pitchers weren't throwing fastballs straight down the pipe to him. So they started hitting him with breaking balls, and he was just swinging at everything, striking out left and right. But after striking out and then the media starting to talk about him and stuff like that, he was like, I don't care how bad I look, I'm going to get better and I'm going to keep at it. And he talked about going to the baton cage every day, even if he had, like, blisters on his hands. It was to the point where, you know, he was putting himself through so much just to get better every single day. And one of the managers was saying that you can just see everything building up over time. And they were saying afterwards, they were like, there's no doubt that if he would have stuck with baseball, he would have went to the major leagues, which is incredible to say that he hadn't played the sport since high school and was at the top of the world in basketball in another sport, and was humble enough to walk, to put himself through that challenge of improving and actually did it. To actually do it. And he did it with a very simple approach, which is, I'm going to go here every day and keep doing the one thing that I'm sucking at. I'm going to keep doing it every single day until I get better at it. And he did, you know, again, impossible. Excel into sports. Yeah, yeah. He drove home. He drove 50 runs home that season, you know, and I think that's just incredible, man. Just, just. But again, I love the fact that those who were around him at the time were saying, like, no, we hadn't seen a work ethic like this. And this is coming from, you know, the top, most recognizable athlete in the world at the time. And here he is struggling at something, and we're watching him every day show up and hitting over and over and over and over and over again until he got better. Similarly, Dennis Rodman, right, the greatest rebound. Look at how he prepared. He was watching games and learning from his mistakes and constantly studying. I even like the part when he mentioned he had just got drafted by the Pistons. I think he was, like, maybe in his third year or so. And he said he kind of realized what his thing was going to be in the NBA. And so he would have his friends come to the gym with him, like, late at night and would just tell him to shoot, and he would just watch the ball, watch the trajectory of the ball, and over time, doing that and reacting to where the ball went, he was able to determine, based off the way the ball was spinning and how it hit the rim, he was able to anticipate where it was going to go. Now, the thing about Dennis Rodman is that I believe he's listed at, like, six six. He wasn't. He wasn't. He was, he played power forward, but he was like an undersized power forward, right? So he wasn't someone who was going to be six foot ten. He's not six foot eleven like that. Like the guys he was going against. He was extremely strong for his size and always well conditioned. But that anticipation is what gave him that edge? The fact that he was able to get a jump on where the ball may be going before his opponent is what gave him an edge. And again, I've never seen a rebounder as great as him in all the years I've been watching basketball. And many people would say he's the greatest to ever rebound, you know? But again, that came from. Not him being the biggest guy at a position where guys are huge. It came from him, you know, noticing a very small detail and being able to act on that and to just basically focus and hunker down on this one thing and using it to his advantage. Work ethic, for sure, delivered practice as well, but also, like, working smarter almost, right? Yeah. He said something like, he learned to be in a position to grab the ball, to be in the right place, basically a very simple principle. Yeah, he exploited that. Unorthodox. I mean, I don't know of many professional athletes, especially at that time. People probably are doing it now after learning that he did it, but I don't know many professional athletes who would tell their friends, oh, come to the gym with me and just shoot, and I'm gonna just watch where the ball goes, you know, I'm already in the pros, right? Like, I could be doing this type of stuff with the tons of assistant coaches that we have on staff, but I'm coming to the gym at another time. After doing all of this work throughout the day, I'm coming to the gym at another time and bringing people who don't even play sports to help like that. That just shows a level of commitment, man. That's, you know, it's. Again, you only see that with people that are truly great in their field. Like, they're completely immersed in their one thing. Awesome. I think that's a great wrap up to this valuable conversation. Thanks, man. That's a problem. A really, really good piece of advice here. Hope you all like that. Do you have any final shout out for audience? Man, I want to recommend. I know we mentioned Keller is one thing, but I want to recommend James Clears, James Clear's atomic habits. I think that's a book that people in our field, really, in any field, but especially in programming every day, because program is a difficult thing, man. It's not. You know, even if certain things come natural to you, you're still going to have to put a lot of work in to be great, you know? And I think his book covers a certain framework that you can apply to your life if you aren't already, to improve it. Drastically. So I want to say, you know, check that book out if you haven't. And also got to give you and Julian a big shout out, man. Love talking to you guys. You've been very helpful to me. So, yeah, thanks, man. Thanks for everything. Thanks, man. That's nice to say. And, yeah, we had a great time working together. And, yeah, I agree that book is because I think every success stands or falls with good habits, and that's really the book on habits. If you implement what you learned there, it will make you a lot more effective. So, yeah, thanks for that, audrew. Always nice talking. Thanks for being on our podcast. And, yeah, you'll be in touch. All right, man. Take it easy. All right, cheers. We hope you enjoyed this episode. To hear more from us, go to Byebytes live, that is Pibit es France, and receive a free gift just for being a friend of the show. And to join our thriving slack community of python programmers, go to Pibytes community. That's Pibit es community. We hope to see you there and catch you in the next episode.