#039 - Tackling big challenges and overcoming decision fatigue with Anthony Shaw

This is, I think, what leads a lot of people with indecision is that you worry too much about the things that might go wrong. And I guess my big tip is that you look back over things that have gone wrong for you in the past, and no one has a perfect life. Like, you know, it's not all roses and stuff, but look back over challenges you've had and how you have overcome them. And difficult or not, you know, you've learned from it and you have overcome it. So kind of have a bit more faith in yourself that in the future, you can deal with things as they come around and take a bit more of a chance. Hello, and welcome to the Pibytes podcast, where we talk about Python career and mindset, where your hosts. I'm Julian Sequeira. And I am Bob Valdebos. If you're looking to improve your python, your career, and learn the mindset for success, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started. Welcome back to another Pie Bytes podcast episode. This is Julian, and I'm here with Bob. How are you, man? Good, thanks. Just came back from the gym. Pumped and more pumped for this interview. Yeah, so we're actually interviewing someone today, a very, very special friend of ours who we spent many years with now and quite a lot of time in Cleveland, I'm happy to say. He's now an australian citizen, so we can officially talk when we catch up. We don't have to hide it or anything like that. A special welcome to Anthony Shaw. Welcome, Anthony. How are you? Hello, Julian. Hey. Hey, Bob. Yeah, stoked to be here. And, yeah, we're actually going to be. Not only are we country neighbors, but we might even be neighbor neighbors as well, soon. So Julian and I have been chatting a lot recently because you might be coming to move into my neighborhood, so that'd be really cool. Oh, my gosh, I can't wait. And I think the more we visualize it and verbalize it, the more likely it's actually going to happen. So we're getting close. It's. We can't actually leave the house because we're all in lockdown. So even if you lived on the same street as me, I'd be just, like, still talking to you over Zoom. Yeah, I'm sure we could code some IoT devices to travel between our houses, deliver messages or email. That works, too. Yeah. Yeah, that works. So, look, thanks so much for joining us today, man. For everyone listening. You know, Anthony and Bob and I, we've met quite a few times now at pycon. In the US, we've been on Anthony and I, we've had lunch quite a few times now and it's just been this great relationship, getting to know Anthony a lot more and seeing his journey as he goes. And that's exactly why we've brought him on the podcast. So anth, before we dive into your journey, would you mind sharing with everyone just a little bit about yourself, what you do and what you're about? Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah. So I'm Anthony, that's my name. I want to get that one out of the way. I'm in Sydney, Australia. I currently work for Microsoft. I've only been there for six months so it's quite a new thing. And I'm a developer advocate so I focus entirely on Python. And yeah, before that I've done a whole range of random different things. And yeah, my career's kind of chopped and changed a few times but yeah, it's been quite an interesting journey. Yeah, I've got three kids and soon to have a dog as well. I haven't told you about that yet. Yeah, we're getting a puppy, which is awesome. Nice. And yeah, live by the beach and spend a lot of time in the water and yeah, I mean my main thing is I'm really kind of enthusiastic about Python in general and the language. Just published a book on it this year which has been going well about Python internals. I do a lot of blogging and stuff like that. Done a few courses and have way too many side projects. Yeah, my side projects have side projects. I'm kind of at that point now. I need to tone it down a bit. But yeah, that's kind of a bit about me, I guess. Is that all? Yeah, that's all I'm doing at the moment. Nothing missing from that list. Geez Louise. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. Before we dive into the python, the career path, do you want to tell a bit about how it is working at Microsoft and especially as developer advocate, what does that entail? It's really hard to describe. And when I was looking at the role as well, interviewing, I interviewed lots of people and they interviewed me as well. So let me get that super clear. Sounded really arrogant during the interview process. You know, I kind of asked them what they do day to day and all the answers were different. And it's basically like working for Microsoft is awesome. It's a massive company and I previously worked for a very large company, 50,000 people company I used to work at. And Microsoft is just like magnitudes larger than that so? Yeah, I mean it's brilliant place to work because this is so many resources and there's just so much out there. There's so many smart people around. Like if you need help with anything you can find somebody who's an expert, but. Or if you want to get people involved in something then there's like teams of people and vice versa as well. I think people are constantly reaching out to me from different places. Even after six months actually just saying. Oh, I heard you work for Microsoft now. Do you mind getting involved in this or what's your opinion on this thing we're doing? And just getting involved in all sorts of random really cool stuff, including, much to Julian's irritation, the beta testing age of empires four. Why did you bring it up? I'm so jealous. Yeah, I have to be under NDA so we can't talk about anything. But yeah, playing games and stuff like that is definitely not in my job remit. But you know, they asked me to do it so I will gladly, gladly help out. Oh, it must be, must be tough, man. I don't know, don't know how you do it sometimes. Now that actually sounds like a fantastic role and I'm actually really happy for you. So congratulations again six months later for working your way into that quick. I know I shouldn't be doing it, but I always like to tear these things apart. I really love that you said don't do it. I love that you said you interviewed them as much as they're interviewing you because that's a tip we constantly tell people, you know, this job is something you'll be doing for the next x many years. You want to make sure it's a good place for you. So that's a great tip. Already right off the bat you're interviewing them and really important that you were asking them about what their experience was like because that would be very similar to yours perhaps. So awesome, man. Thanks for sharing that. Now to jump in a little bit actually, before I do that, kudos as well. Congrats on the book. I'm still waiting for my print copy. I've got one hand. When you move up here you can, you can have a copy. Oh, here we go. I got a collection of them behind me so I can spare one yet. Excellent. And I'll. So most people will gift someone like a bottle of wine when they move into a new house, you'll come into the new place with a book. So thanks, man. My wife will appreciate that you get a bottle of wine as well. It's fine. Perfect. Perfect. Thanks, man. All right, so prior to Microsoft, you worked at Dimension Data entity, and there was a pretty big role. Right, so you were. What was your role there? Yeah, by the time I left, I was a senior vice president of talent transformation. So, yeah, it was a. Almost like an executive role, I guess, managing quite a lot of people. Yeah. Doing mostly strategic work for the company. So. Yeah, but I had lots of different roles. I was there for nearly ten years and did so many different things. I was managing developers at one point. I was doing research, I was doing learning and development. Yeah, it's one of those cool things. Working for a big company is that you can wear lots of different hats, officially or unofficially, as long as you're not wearing them all at the same time, which can work really well just to learn a lot and experience a lot without having to go through the hassle of actually changing companies. So, yeah, I was there for ten years. Great place to work, and really, really enjoyed it, but it kind of came to that point I needed to kind of move on and do something different. Okay, now that's. So that's a really good insight as well, that you can wear many hats, even if it's not your formal role. Again, that's something we constantly encourage people to do, you know, take these opportunities as they come up, test age of empires for whatever it is that you might be, you might be able to do. But that role you were in before you left, was that a traditional. And I'm leading you on here, clearly, but was that a python type role? No, not at all. Yeah, I didn't really do any coding, only as a hobby on the side. And none of what I was doing for my work was programming related. I mean, my boss was the head of HR. Like, I was in. Yeah, that kind of department within the business. People knew that I was technical and, like, I did get involved in technical stuff, like as a judge on hackathons or like just giving my input and opinions on stuff sometimes, but not like super deeply involved in technical stuff day to day. I was mostly doing. Yeah, like management work and planning and strategy stuff and. Yeah, like middle management stuff, like, although I guess a lot of the listeners might not know what that means and it probably sounds a bit droll and boring, but it's really fun. Like, it's. Managing people is really rewarding and it's also very time consuming. So, like, managing people is a full time job. So, like, what do you actually do? Working out what priorities everyone on the team has, what they're working on what's successful, where they're getting stuck, where you can support them. Like, all of that stuff takes up a lot of time. Interesting to hear then what moved you into Microsoft, because now you're at a more technical role and at the previous job it didn't do relatively that much coding. So did it start to age or did you want to have a more technical role? How was that transition? I've kind of been going backwards and forwards on this decision for my whole career, really is like what's the right balance between being an individual contributor and being a manager and also being hands on technical and being strategic work? Like, what's the right balance? I still don't think I found the right balance, to be honest. I'd be lying if I sat on here and gave people advice about the right way to do it because I think you get a feel for it and you make decisions and also you never really have the luxury of you work where you've got opportunities to work and where opportunities come around. So I'm working for Microsoft now, but this role, there was only one person doing this before, which is Nina Zakarenko, who's my manager now. And they created a role for a second person. So there's one opportunity globally for this position. So, like, it's a combination of there's an opportunity that was too good to miss and also, like, it was the right time for me and I wanted to move into something a lot more involved and do something a bit more for me as well. Like what's my passion and where's my interests lie, which, you know, management is interesting and I was learning a lot by doing it. But, you know, I'm a techie at heart. Like, that's, that's my passion. And like, I really feel it now that I'm doing this role because it's just so rewarding. Like, during the week, I get to work on so many different things and really interesting projects and stuff like that, and I'm really, really enjoying it. So that's cool, man. And because what speaks to me about that is that concept that you can't know what you're passionate about unless you try, unless you actually get out there and do something to even figure it out. So to know that, you know, this was a role that you might be, you might enjoy, that you're going to find some passion in this role, you had to actually take that chance and just, just go for it. Furthermore, to even know that this role was out there, were you actively looking? Were you keeping your you know, your ear to the ground, looking around for things and just saw it pop up on your radar. No, I was approached for this one. Okay. So, yeah, I mean, which is unusual. Yeah. I think if you're. If you're on LinkedIn, you kind of get, like, recruiter mail, like, all the time and stuff. But to actually get approached specifically for a role is. Is unusual. And actually, I'm not that surprised. Yeah, I'm not surprised by that at all, because you're doing so much, and you're definitely a known face in the python space, so. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, perhaps not unwittingly, but unbeknownst to you, you know, there were so many tactical things you were doing unintentionally. Right. So you getting out there and contributing to open source, I mean, you creating all those different packages that you have over the years. Your GitHub repo is one of the biggest repos I've seen, not that I've started and follow it or anything like that. You're constantly on Twitter sharing knowledge. You were practically doing the job that they hired you to do before they even spoke to you about it. And again, that's one of the key messages we give to people. You've got to get out there, just share your work and get over that imposter syndrome of pushing some code out there, of sharing your failures so people can learn. Those are some of my favorite posts of yours and tweets where you just share that something broke after 6 hours of playing with it, whatever else. I mean, you're so, and I love it, and you're so open and willing to share your knowledge, which is one of those key steps for learning as well, but for growth, for finding opportunities. I mean, I remember, I don't know, a year ago maybe you and I hopped on a call because I thought it was quite interesting. You were doing some hacking stuff, and you just sat there with me for an hour, and we just did some, you know, basic hacking through. I can't remember the website now, but it was just a lot of fun, you know, and you took that time to do that with me. So you're that kind of personality and also person who just pushed through that imposter syndrome and get out there and share for the, I guess, the greater good. Right. So a follow up question from there is, do you ever feel, you know, nervous about doing it? Do you ever get that imposter syndrome as you're about to hit submit or tweet or anything? Yeah, like, definitely. I mean, the book was a difficult one, so. Oh, yeah. So the book I've just published is on the internals of Python, and this is the first book ever of that topic. And there are very few books published about the internals of compilers in general. And the ones that are out there, I've got a couple of them behind me, are, like, extremely math or computer science theoretical. They're the kind of books you'd get at university, like, as your, you know, your course books, like, and you'd have to work through them and, like, coursework. And that's. That's not my style. Like, I'm not. I like to try and take something complicated and then try and make it easy to understand, and if I don't understand it, then I can't make it easy to understand because, you know, you need to understand it in order to explain it simply. Like, that's. I can't. But who says that? But that's. That is a saying with the book. Like, when I kind of started putting it together and then sharing it with people, people kept giving good feedback and I kept thinking, yeah, this is fine, but when someone who actually knows what they're talking about finally gets. Finally gets copy, they're gonna look through it and be like, what are you talking about? None of this is. None of this is true. Like, this is gibberish. Or people just gonna, like, find all these really obvious faults or things like that. So I definitely was really worried about that, putting the book together. And there was also no reference to go by, so I was just comparing, like, the source code and what I understood as well with other people's opinions and then just trying to make no, as few assumptions as possible and then trying to describe things. So the book is probably an extreme version of this, because the whole way through writing the book, I had this imposter syndrome of I kind of still don't really understand python, and I'm just kind of fumbling around and trying to, like, carve off little bits and then boil it down to something that I can actually get through my head. And then by the time I finished it, I actually read through it and I was like, oh, there's actually quite a lot of stuff in here. It's actually described some concepts which I never understood properly before. And now that I've actually gone through this process, it makes a lot more sense. And I did make mistakes. Like, there's definitely stuff in the book that I got wrong. It's not like I wrote it and it was perfect. Like, I think there's over 500 bits of feedback over the early access program. So, like, I made heaps of mistakes, but, you know, it was more that whilst writing it, I think it was exciting to tackle something which was so complicated in my head. Like it. It was this kind of huge mountain, like this thing that I didn't really understand internally how it worked, and it just seemed really complicated from the outside. And when you look at the source code for Python, it just seems so complicated. But when you break it down into little bits and then you break it down even more. And you break it down even more, it's just a lot of linked lists and binary trees and simple algorithms internally. If you understand some of the core concepts, then you can figure out the components and how they work. Thanks for sharing that. That's a fascinating story. Kudos on the book. Writing a C Python internal book is, as you said, it's the first book on the topic. So really happy that you did it. I have to be honest, I still have to finish mine. I probably want to invite a physical edition now to have it on my desk. It's definitely better reading experience, but yeah, I think you hit up on a few mindset things here as well. Like the imposter syndrome, definitely recognizable for any content creator. At the beginning it's just this big mountain, and you have to go through it and actually enjoy the process and kind of accept that you're going to fail inevitably. Right? I mean, at certain make mistakes rather, and just in that iterative process, fix those mistakes and getting better and yeah, I like what you said. Like, then you read it back and it's like, wow, it's actually, it makes sense. And because at the end of that process, you came out stronger and much more knowledgeable. Because the best way to really learn something inside out is to teach it, which you're basically doing when you're writing a book. So into that mindset then, do you have some specific. Because this again, is a major endeavor, right? Maybe bordering the productivity and mindset side here. What were some tactics you apply to make this happen? Because again, this is an enormous effort. How did you pull it off? It's probably something that I'll be building up to for like maybe 20 years, to be honest. Like the process we're building up to for a long time, which is trying to learn something new in a short space of time and really understand it fully, is something that I've kind of focused a lot on throughout my career and beforehand, especially in technical stuff, which is what I'm passionate about. Like just this this passion for wanting to take things apart and seeing how they work inside and then putting them back together or trying to, and in many cases wondering why you've still got a few screws left by the time you've put it back together. Every technician's fear. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And in that process, I think definitely there's some things that you like to do, which is to, so if I let, if I, if I learn a new programming language, for example, that's always a good example because, like once you've learned one, learning or second is, is like two or three times easier, in my, my opinion, my experience. And once you've done four, you kind of get into the swing of things and then it's just like, okay, what's the syntax? What are the core principles? And you can pick up a new language pretty quickly at a high level. Like, you know, you're not going to be an expert, but with technical subjects, what I like to do is to look at examples first. So, like, if don't, don't just start from scratch. Like, and I think with this, with teaching people programming as well, I don't like, give them an empty file and go, here you go, write some code. Here's the, like, let's teach you about these statements and those statements. Like, it makes sense when you see it done just as if you were learning anything else. Like, you know, if you were learning to drive, you've seen people drive before, like, you know, yeah. Generally what they do. And then, and then they put you in the seat and you do that one task, like, okay, you start the car and that's your first lesson. It's like, you know, you learn one thing at a time. And I think with the technical topics it's the same. Like you pick something and pick one thing and learn it one thing at a time. And don't rush through things either. I see this mistake a lot with people who are getting into technology or getting into programming. They kind of try and charge through topics like it's how many modules can I get through? Like, can I get through the entire course from start to finish? And you're just looking at information and, you know, actually working with it. You know, I've been through lots of online courses and stuff like that, just learning technology just for the sake of it. And it's always fun to watch the course and understand the concepts and then just pause and then, and build something. Like that's the next step is put it down. Like watching a programming course doesn't teach you program writing programs teaches you to program, but you've got to kind of get this loop where you're rehearsing and you're practicing and you're implementing stuff, and then you're thinking and reinforcing what you've learned and then going back and then studying more, you know, which is what pibytes the platform, you know, it does really well, is that it's that reinforcement learning through exercises, but in cases where you're on the edges of technology. So with the internals book, for example, like, you know, I couldn't go and watch somebody else's course, like, because there wasn't any material on this. And really all I was left with was just reading the source code. And what I had to do instead was to actually make tools like program make these little programs and applications for the book. Some of them are in the book, some of them aren't. Some of them I just made just for my own benefit, like, I made an application which would visualize something within Python and then actually prove, just for my own sake, how I thought the algorithm worked and then actually try and visualize it. Um, and I wrote a few little apps and stuff like that for the book, which came in really helpful because it, you know, seeing something visually just makes it so much easier to understand. If you read a concept, it just explains, like an algorithm, for example, like, you know, when you learn basic CS algorithms, like, how trees work, if you never saw a diagram of a binary tree and somebody just explained it to you in text, it would make no sense the other way. Yeah, you'd be like, okay, I don't understand what you're talking about. And with lists as well in grouping and, like, you need to see things visually. So I think that's one of the technique that I've kind of done quite a bit of. And I've always done in my programs. Like, I always try to build a visual element into them as well. I'm jumping around a lot in my answers, but that's gold. That's great advice. And I remember that from your early articles when we met in 2017 in Portland. You were doing a lot of articles, and they might not cover a lot, but what they cover, they were more like deep dive and really nitty gritty trying to understand the internals. And that was super cool. Yeah, that's awesome. Some awesome tips there, man. Especially just that overall concept of, well, one learning by teaching, which we always go on about as well. But just seeing how you learn by building, you know, we, it's almost like having, um, tactical feedback, you know, from like with a car, right when you hit the brakes, you feel the car stop. So you know how much to apply and stuff. So with programming, a similar concept is just actually start writing the code and you'll get the errors and you see what works, what doesn't. You can play, you're free to do it, but if you're just staring at a document, reading a book, or watching a video course without actually doing that, you know, applying the break, putting your foot on the brake and pressing it with your code, then it's up to you to try your very best to absorb it. And that's not really the best way to learn anything, you know. Again, you don't learn to drive a car by reading a book on it. So, no, I think that's really, really great tip for everyone listening, you know, just reinforcing that. Learn by building, learn by doing, get your hands dirty. And I love that concept that you sort of pause the course, go and apply, build something, come back to it in a week, pick up where you left off. That's fine. Just try and get something tactical going, type on the keyboard, you know, build something that gives you that feedback. I think it's a really powerful, um, tip there and process for everyone. So thanks for sharing that. I really appreciate it. Um, so one last thing I wanted to do before we, you know, go into where people can find you and learn more about you. Although I'm pretty sure if you search Google for Anthony Shaw, it just blows up. Um, what I would like to find out, just from your perspective. You know, a lot of people in our audience, in our community that we talk to a lot, they're in that position that you were in at Dimension data, NTT. Right. They may not be in an SVP role like you were, but that's irrelevant. The point is that they're in a role that they weren't using their technical skills too much. It wasn't perhaps a role that they felt they wanted to continue doing for another ten years and they just needed a change. Right. So you had the courage to make that change. Obviously, you had to speak with your family and weigh up all of those consequences going to and fro. Right. But what were some of the things that you ran through, you know, that you told yourself to really take that step? Oh, that's a hard question. Um, yes, a couple of things. A couple of things about me. Um, so I. I have anxiety. I don't really talk about it that much, but, um, yeah, I have, and have had for quite a long time. So, um, for me, making decisions, and for most people, making decisions, big decisions especially, is really difficult. And over a couple of years, probably eight years ago, I kind of went through some, like, therapy and stuff like that and learnt all these really cool techniques that I used to apply in terms of not getting stuck in indecision. Because one of the annoying things about anxiety is that you kind of foresee or predict what might happen with things and you tend to, you know, think, well, if I do this, then this might happen. And you assume that the worst will happen or something bad will happen. And what I tend to do is to think, well, you know, that might lead to something, that might lead to this and that might lead to that. And then what I'll do is then not make a decision because I'll just see all the options as being negative. Yeah. And then just stay in a position. And so what I've kind of learned over, over time and, like, this sort of techniques to do it, I guess, is, yeah, spotting when I'm doing that and also sometimes having faith that sometimes not everything's gonna be perfect, but it can, it can work out and also trust in your own ability. Like, if bad things happen, you can deal with them. So, yeah, I guess that's kind of one thing I kind of picked on with the decision, which was really tricky, was. Yeah, because it was a big move, like, financially, it was a big change, like career wise and stuff like that. Like, I'd built up a career at a company over ten years. Like you, I know people, I know where it's going, it's pretty solid. Then basically just making a complete change and it might not have worked out. Like, I. I might have been terrible at it. Like, I might have been fired after three months. I don't know. There's so many things that went through my head, like, what happens if this goes wrong? And what I did was to really look back and think about challenges that I've had in the past and how I've dealt with them and how I have overcome them, and then use that as a way of reassuring myself that if things don't go to plan, then I can deal with it. So I'm not answering your question directly, but I'm sharing something because I think your viewers might appreciate it. And this is, I think what leads a lot of people with indecision is that you worry too much about the things that might go wrong. And I guess my big tip is that you look back over things that have gone wrong for you in the past, and no one has a perfect life. It's not all roses and stuff, but look back over challenges you've had and how you have overcome them. And difficult or not, you know, you've learned from it and you have overcome it. So kind of have a bit more faith in yourself that in the future you can deal with things as they come around and take a bit more of a chance. Oh, man, I love that sentiment. Thank you so much for opening up and sharing that. Um, I think that's super valuable. It funny you say that because this is something in a topic we talked about, I think, two weeks ago on the mindset call in the PDM program, and I just recorded Bob, one of my, one of our signature WhatsApp messages today. Talking about a tip to get through the tough times is to talk about your. Tell yourself your own story in the third person. Third person. So say, you know, Anthony was in this job at Company X, and he was struggling with this and he really wanted to change, and he took this leap of faith and he really put his best foot forward in the new job. He's successful and, you know, so you tell this story about something that happened in the past, but you're telling it to yourself in the third person out loud, and it just, you know, removes that stress and shows you that you can overcome any obstacle that's thrown your way. Because we all have overcome an immeasurable amount of obstacles along our paths to get where we are. So a really, really great tip, man. Thank you so much for sharing that. It's almost, you need that auto pilot corrector thingy because that's why we say have a brac document, because it's so easy to forget what you are capable of, you know, your skill set and having a brag dog. And you can go back to all these wins. We do that. Right. And it keeps our confidence high and funny. You mentioned the mindset call I was about to quote Reese, wasn't Reese who said, like, don't regret the things you, you have done, regret the things that you possibly not have done or something like that. So basically, you have to sometimes take the risk, take the gamble, and trust the process that you will make it work. Right. And just. Just to wrap it up, how's it working out for you so far? Yeah, it's great. I love it. Yeah, I love the new role and, yeah, still really enjoying it. It's been a challenge because I'd started in the pandemic and I've never actually met anybody that I work well. I've met a couple of people, but, like, I haven't met most people that I work with IRL in real life. Just met everyone online, which is really weird. I like spending time with people and. Yeah, I just kind of miss that. But that'll come, you know, we're all on the same boat, so, you know, that'll come in time. But, yeah, so far it's brilliant. Like, I'm. Yeah. Just getting to play with so much cool stuff and. Yeah. Like, fixing stuff that's broken. It feels really rewarding sharing cool things with people, improving experiences. Yeah, yeah. It feels like a really positive change. I love it. That's fantastic. And don't worry about meeting the rest of your team. You know, when I move up there, I'm all you need, so that's it. But I'm with the same boat. I haven't met my team before either. So I can't wait till borders open up and we can, you know, get back to it. All right. So I need to visit you guys when that happens. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And Bob as well. We'll make space for Bob. That's right. Bob. You can alternate between our houses. Salt Lake City. We're meeting for Pycon. Let's not start about Salt Lake City because I'm not even sure Australia's borders will be open by then. You know, that's a positive. Still. We've got. No, we've got nine months, I think. Um, eight months. Nine months. No, half year. Right. April. April. Oh, no, that's eight months. Yeah, yeah, eight months. I reckon we're going. And I'm looking forward to it. Um, we're going to go Viking as well. Yeah, we'll get Matt to take us. That's a good idea. The area around there is just phenomenal. It's just really beautiful. The mountains and the canyons and that's pretty. Well, that's for the next time. I'll probably see you based on lockdown, so on the plane on the way over here again. All right, well, let's wrap it up. This has been an amazing conversation, and clearly we have to have you back because we just scratched the surface. Should make a monthly segment, pie bites with anth. But where can people find you if they decide they want to look you up? Where can they find you? On the Internet? Yeah, I'm on Twitter, anthonypj Shaw, and I'm also on LinkedIn. I do recommend people just connect with me on LinkedIn because I know this podcast focuses a lot on careers as well. And the IT industry program industry is a lot smaller than you think. So often if you go for roles, you might find that we're connected to somebody, or I know somebody and you might need introducing. So yeah, add me on LinkedIn and follow me on Twitter. That's pretty much all I'm on these days. But yeah, my contact details are around both of those. Yeah, that's probably how you get in contact. Nice. We'll link all that in the show notes as well. A great tip with LinkedIn as well. It's a good point. It's amazing the people you see you're connected with. So good call. Well, amazing. Thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing all these valuable tips and insight and experience and yeah, you take care and we hope to see you soon again. Cheers, Bob. Cheers, Julian. No worries. Thanks Anthony, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in as usual. If you really enjoyed the episode, please give it a thumbs up, like whatever, whatever platform you happen to use. And please go and contact Anthony, spam him as much as you can on my behalf and I'm sure I'll pay the price when I move closer. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you next week. We hope you enjoyed this episode. To hear more from us, go to Pibyte friends, that is Pibit es friends and receive a free gift just for being a friend of the show and to join our thriving slack community of python programmers, go to Pibytes community, that's pibit es community. We hope to see you there and catch you in the next episode.