If you want to transition from being an engineer into an entrepreneur, one of the things you have to learn is you have to learn to be able to talk about what you're doing to people, and you have to learn how to, like, talk about it in a way that makes sense. Hello and welcome to the Pybytes podcast, where we talk about Python career and mindset. We're your hosts. I'm Julian Sequeira. And I am Bob Baldebos. If you're looking to improve your python, your career, and learn the mindset for success, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started. Welcome back everybody, to the Pibytes podcast. Bob Elboss here. And this week I interviewed Yujen, software developer, entrepreneur, and definitely somebody in tune with the mindset we always talk about. So without further ado, here's the interview. Hope you enjoy it. Hello and welcome back to the Pivots podcast. This is Bob Eldoboz, and I'm here with Yujin Tang. And I'll just go into my intro now. Just introduce myself. So, yeah, so my name is Yujin. I am currently in America. I moved here from China when I was three with my parents, did a lot of math, a lot of computer science growing up, very, very nerdy. And I actually, the first programming language I learned was Pascal. So when I was in high school, I took my first programming class and I learned Pascal. And then from there I learned a little bit of c and I participated in some computer science contests. There's this one called ACSL, American Computer science league. So I won the finals of ACSL twice in a row. And then that got me an internship at IBM. So I started working at IBM when I was 16. Um, and that's where I learned how to code, uh, c and Java from the beginning, um, did a lot of, kind of stuff with, um, like Gui's and like, actually we even did some c coding. That's kind of where I started my career. Um, and, uh, I went to, I went to college and then I learned like machine learning and all that stuff. Um, I published some, a few papers and one of my papers landed me here in Seattle, which is where I am right now. Um, and that paper got me a job at Amazon, where I worked on the automl team. And that's when I was doing pretty much all java stuff. But that was my first exposure to python when I was on that team, there was a guy who was on that team who wrote a bunch of python scripts for moving data around. That's when I got my first exposure to what Python looked like, how it was used in production and use cases and applications. Um, and now. And since then, I've kind of really gotten into Python. I think it's really fun. Um, I have, like, I, like, basically self taught python, um, through using, like, I was just online and just, like, reading people's blogs and, like, you know, doing tutorials and all that kind of stuff. Um, which is exactly what I blog about and do tutorials about now, too. Um, so I did that for a while and basically got to the point where I was comfortable enough that I was like, hey, um, I think I'm comfortable enough with the language and the software engineering side of things that I can go and. And do something really cool with this. And so last year, I built my own API using fast API, which is a python library, and I built my own, like, API backend doing that. And, um, yeah, so that's kind of where I'm at now. I'm still, like, you know, I'm. I'm out here, I'm coding, I'm writing tutorials and building a company. Wow, that's, uh, that's a lot. And we actually connected through Tanya Sims. Right. Shout out. And she was on the podcast. And that's because you work with her, right? Or at deep Gram these days as well. Yeah, I worked at deep Gram for a while. I contracted there for a while, so I worked with Tanya. Tanya is great. I love her personality. She's really fun. And then the one thing that super surprised me is I read some of her posts and stuff, and it was about sports stuff. And so I asked her about that, and she was like, oh, yeah, I used to play in the WNBA, or I used to play college basketball and stuff. And I was like, that is. Whoa, that's so cool. And then she was like, yeah, yeah. And she talks about how, like, one of her. I saw, like, one of her presentations, and it had, like, this thing. It was, like, use, like, a height icebreaker. And I was like, what's the height icebreaker? And she was like, oh, I'm like, six three. And I was like, whoa. Okay, that's also really cool. So. But, yeah, Tanya and I connected over just, like, you know, sports and then, like, doing python stuff. Yeah. And then she introduced us to you as well, so that was nice. And, yeah, again, Tonya was on the podcast, amazing episode personality, the MBA. Yeah, the combination with Python. But, yeah, a bit more about your background. And so that's a lot of stuff. But I wanted to specifically ask you about why Python and how that switch happened from Java into Python resources. What helped you? You already mentioned that. Self taught the tutorials online, I guess building. Yeah, tell me, tell us a bit more. Yeah, yeah, dude. So let's see. So when I first started out, I did a bunch of different languages. Like I said, pascal, C, C, Java, JavaScript, all of this stuff. And I even did like a little foray into C sharp, which I didn't like that much. And then I went into Python because I liked. Okay, so you know, like the way that Java and C and C sharp look, it's like when you're writing like print statements in Java, you're like, system dot out, dot print line, and it's like, you know, brace here, blah, blah. And I was just like, I just don't, it's just not that pretty. And when you look at Python, when you look at, when you both read and write Python code, it almost looks, it looks closer to English to me and like, it's almost like I can just like tell the computer, like, what I wanted to do instead of calling a bunch of different, I mean, of course in python there is still, you still do this in torch, like Pytorch, torch audio, blah, blah, blah, layers or stuff like that. And there's still these libraries where you do something, but in the end I think a lot of it just, it looks prettier. You don't have to worry about semicolons, you don't have to worry about braces. You do have to worry about white space. So it's a different thing, but it's simpler with white space. Yeah, yeah, that, yeah, intense matter. And actually one of the interesting things I see about Python is the whole like spaces versus tabs kind of thing. People like will argue about that. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, look like. Are you a space or tab person? Oh, I. Tab, but all my tabs, faces. Yeah, all my tabs. Oh, yeah, yeah. I think my fame converts them anyway, so. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's, it's the same thing. Why would I. Yeah, we automate it. Right. This is like the most software developer thing you could do is just automate everything. Right? That's a good tip. Yeah, sorry, derail too. So, yeah, python, beautiful, elegant, clean. Yeah, that's compiling in itself. Yeah, it looks nice. It's fast. There's, it's not fast. Like, not like the language executes quickly. It's actually slow, but it's fast as, and you can build quickly and it's like fast enough that it's like, unless you're doing something that's like, like if you need like a hundred thousand like TP transactions per second, then Python might not be the right language to choose. But for most people and most applications, when you're learning how to code and at scale, given the cloud infrastructure landscape of today, where you can just horizontally scale like crazy, you don't really need to think about do I need spring boot or do I need c. Do I need something that can natively handle 100,000 transactions per second or can I just use Python and just scale horizontally? And so that's kind of like just something that I think the landscape has really enabled the use of Python to build things quickly. Python's always been something nice to build things quickly. The landscape has also enabled us to scale with Python and I think that's what makes it so popular now. And my thing is just, I saw, I guess the writing on the walls. You could see if you look at the lists of the most popular languages over time, you can see JavaScript is really popular because I mean, it's basically the only language you can use on the web. Well, I guess you have Ruby on rails, but most people use JavaScript. Eventually I just saw Python was getting more popular and I was like, I should get into this. I think this will be a cool language to learn. And it's getting more popular. I think the reason is because it's the closest to English. If you're not someone who codes a lot, you look at Python and you're like, oh, this makes more sense. As if you looked at Java, you'd be like, I want to learn how to code. What the heck? Yeah. And then you have the Zen of Python, right? It's super pragmatic. It's often very close to clean code and best software practices, I find. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Nice. So a bit about these days, what you're doing with Python. You said you build an API with fast API, amazing framework. We had Sebastian Ramirez on the podcast as well. Oh yeah, Sebastian on here too. Cool. Yeah, episode 80. We could talk a bit about API work. That's always interesting, but yeah, that's probably now in maintenance. So maybe you're doing other things with machine learning AI these days. So yeah. General question, what you do with Python? Yeah, yeah, sure. I can talk to that about. I can talk about that quite a bit. Let's see. So the API is actually, I mean, it is kind of in maintenance. I'm in the process of, we just finished like a fourth refactor. I think maybe last month, maybe September, something like that. But yeah, Fastapi is really nice. I actually initially started on Flask and then I moved to Fastapi because I was like, well, I'm actually building an API and I can, so one of my friends codes and he's very good at JavaScript. He's actually decent at Python too, but he mainly does JavaScript and front end stuff and so I'm not that great at front end stuff. I much more lean towards the logic level layer of things. So I like the backend stuff. I basically asked him if he could help me build out the front end and he was like yeah, sure. So then I just offset that to him and I just built the API out. And so then I went from flask to fast API. One of the nice things about fast API too is it's got swagger built in, so it's got the docs that are auto generated and all that stuff. And yeah, so that's kind of what we did with that and now what I'm doing actually. So I've actually, this is actually even a switch from the last time we've talked because when you're in a startup, when you're in startup world, things just change so quickly. But I've been kind of consulting with a bunch of people about the evangelism of AI dev tools. So one of the nice things about Python and just tech in general, at the speed of which tech progresses, is that it has actually become incredibly easy to build tools with technology. And especially with Python as a backend now it's so popular, it's so ubiquitous, almost everybody can build like, you know, can build tools with this stuff. And I think this is a good future to kind of like see, right? Like the more people that we have that are able to build these tools, the better, the faster that we can advance the speed of technology. But one of the issues is distribution. How do you get the best dev tools out there? The way that people think about or the way that I think about this is what makes a software developer want to use a product. The reason why I thought about this is this is the way that I initially evangelized the text API. We got 300 some users on it, we got a few paying customers, we have like 100 something active users. And the way that we did it was literally through me writing a ton of blog posts. That was it. That was like the only marketing tool that we had. Um, and the, the way that, I think the reason why it worked is because I basically wrote these blog posts that did these like kind of like mini cool projects that showed you things like, hey, you can use NLP in python in like ten lines of code. Like, sure, you can go and you can go create your own little thing here and use like, you know, an open source library, like Spacey or stanza or whatever, and it'll take you, I don't know, not that many lines, 30 to 50 lines of code. Or you can just call an API and it'll do it for you. Someone's already built this for you. Software development is a bunch of putting legos together, and so you might as well use this. Yeah, abstractions. So you might as well use this abstraction that someone else has already created and do your code, do whatever you want to do in ten lines of code. I built a bunch of these kinds of projects and other software developers saw them and they liked them and then they signed up for the text API and then they, you know, the people who really liked it would pay for it. Um, and so I noticed that this was, uh, uh, an issue for, uh, a lot of other startups because a lot of startups want to move into this PlG, like product led growth motion. Um, and what I started doing, what, what I started doing a while ago is consulting with these startups and just charging them to make like, pieces for them, like content pieces. And that's still kind of what I'm doing. But what I've actually started moving towards is like, you know, now I'm at the point where I've started to kind of meet a lot of other people in this space. Like you, like Tanya, like, just a lot of like, amazing people. Like Kristen. I was on her podcast a while ago and I was like, hey, there's definitely like some room here for. Do you know what Triplebyte is? No. Okay. Do you know what Turing is the company? No. No. Okay. Triplebyte and Turing are these like software engineering, like recruiting platforms. Basically, they say things like, we're recruiting the top 1% of software engineers and stuff like that. And so I was like, there should be something like this for Dev Rel, for developer advocacy. And the thing here is in this dev relocacy, this distribution evangelism type role is, the difficulty is that you need two different skill sets. You need to be able to program and you need to be able to write and you need to be able to talk. Um, but the nice thing about it is that unlike software engineering, you don't need like a depth of experience to be good at it. You just need to know how to program and how to find the resources for learning how to program, and you'll be good at it. Um, and so I think, like, I was like, well, why don't I just do something where I, like, combine all of this and just create, like, a triple byte for developer advocacy, where we find, like, the best folks who know how to program and know how to market and stuff, or, like, know how to, like, do, like, the, the people skills, the soft side, the soft skill side of things. Right. Um, so that's actually where I've, where I've started pivoting to because, you know, that's just how the market responds. And, like, being entrepreneurial, you know, you have to, you have to, you have to listen to the market. You can't just be like, this is what I want to do. Even though I'm like, oh, I want to make an NLP API, I think it's really cool, like, we're making the best NLP API. I'm like, all right, like, yeah, we can do this. But, like, it's just like the market, it hasn't responded in the way that I've wanted it to. And so I'm like, okay, well, this is what the market is responding to, so let's go do that. Yeah. Yeah. And that kind of answers the next question, because as people can already tell, you're pretty entrepreneurial. How is entrepreneurship different from software engineering? And what I really like is, like, you didn't, did not only build the API, but you built content around it, and you had a way of publishing and get in sync with the audience, see what they really wanted, and then build out your product. Right. And that's why it became more successful. But that's a whole different skill set, right. That marketability. And that's often a challenge for programmers that, you know, engineers that really like to be 100% in the code. Right. But that's not how it works. So I guess the answer, how is entrepreneurship different? I would say it's to also have that marketability, stay in tune with the market side of it. But of course. Happy if you want to expand more on that. Yeah, sure. I love talking about this because I think it's very interesting, especially coming from a very, very technical background where, like, I'd always been in this kind of technical role. I'd started doing computer science from an early age. I started working at IBM in an early age and doing software engineering. One of the biggest differences that I see between software engineering and entrepreneurship is that entrepreneurship is a much more open ended problem. When you're building software, you're basically given like, hey, here's this software we need to build. Go build it. And there's a process, right? There's a specification, and there's a process. There's a process that's almost like it's very clearly written out for you. You don't have to go find it. You don't have to go figure it out yourself. It's just like, okay, high level design, low level design, interfaces, you know, uh, interface slash, abstraction, API contracts. Okay, now let's build the code, and then you build the code, and you write your unit test, you do your integration test, and then, and then you ship it. Right. Um, makes it sound a lot simpler than it actually is, but, like, the. It is complex, but, yeah, structure is there, right? Yeah. Um. Enter the jungle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas, like, entrepreneurship, like, is basically, like, it's entering the jungle. Like, you're. You're like, this is what I like. I want to go and, like, create something for myself. I want to create something thing that people are going to, like, that's going to go change people's lives, that, like, is going to really help people do XYZ better. Right. And so that's kind of like the, you kind of go into entrepreneurship, and you're like, this is my north Star. And then, like, you're just here, and you're like. And you're just trying to get there somehow. And, like, you're just trying to get there, and you don't know how, like, I don't know how. I'm just, like, I'm just out here, like, talking to people about stuff, like, trying to figure out the market. And, like, I'm like, that's, that's the whole game. It's different, and it's like, I would say, like, yeah, like, as a. From. If you want to transition from being an engineer into an entrepreneur, one of the things you have to learn is you have to learn to be able to talk about what you're doing to people, and you have to learn how to, like, talk about it in a way that makes sense, and that's something I'm definitely still learning. Like, you know, everything I do, I'm still trying to find, like, the best way to explain things to people. Um, but, yeah, and I think also, like, it's unnatural for engineers to really, like, brag about what they do. I think some engineers are naturally good at that, but a lot of engineers I meet are introverted or come from a background where they're just like, yeah, I mean, of course I can do that. Like, that was easy, you know, so modest as well, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, they're just. They're modest, they're humble, and, like, it's. It's hard to get them to be, like, talking about what they're doing. I'm like, dude, like, this is an amazing project. Like, okay, for example, I'm actually. I'm coaching someone right now on, like, programming and, like, python specifically and, like, natural language processing and stuff like that. And I'm like. And I'm telling her, like, I'm like, this is amazing. Like, what you're building and, like, the speed at which you're learning is just like. Is incredible, you know? She's like, oh, yeah. You know, like, I'm. I'm, like, working, like, pretty hard at this. I'm like, yeah, like, obviously working hard is part of it, but, like, you should also understand that what you are building, what you're doing, is actually amazing. To be able to do this kind of stuff is really difficult. Right. Cool. Yeah, no, that. That makes a lot of sense. And that's good advice as well, because definitely some people in the audience are definitely on that path of wanting to become entrepreneur. But I think, like, the marketability, even for regular software engineers, if you want to land your next gig job, you need to put your work out there. I mean, Julian, myself, Julian, by the way, who's asleep, who would have loved to be here. But time zones, you know, just make sure you know, we always say that, right? You need to get your work out there and build it, and it will come, well, not happening. You need. You need to market your skills, and that does require that you show your work and be also proud of it. And, you know, there are. Yeah, there can be some bragging rights and stuff. But anyway, so talking about side projects, you already mentioned, like, bringing together dev rel engineers, but as an entrepreneur, I think you have more side projects that you want to mention. One or two more you're busy with now, and that might be interesting for us to check out. Let's see. Am I busy with any? Right now, I have an open source library called Py. NLP lib. P y. NLP lib. It's on pypy. And my goal with this NLP library is basically to create an open source, end to end NLP library for all sorts of NLP applications. Not just, like speech to text or text processing, but also to include things like OCR or text to speech or conversational AI. Um, OCR is optical character recognition, um, like, that kind of stuff. Um, I want to have more people to contribute to this. So now, right now, it's only got two contributors. It's got me, and it's got, uh, Zinzel. Um, Zenzel myricks is the name of the, the person that I've been mentoring, and I've been, like, kind of, like, coaching over, like, the past few months. Um, and she is absolutely amazing. I was like, I was like, dude, you've barely known how to code for a year, and you're already able to contribute meaningfully to an open source library. Like, like, that's incredible. You know, I think, like, it took me, took me years. Like, I didn't even make my first, like, I think it took me, like, took me, like, two. Two years before, like, I was even at the point where I was, like, doing, like, anything that was, like, building, like, real projects. Like, when I first got, like, hired onto, like, IBM as, like, an intern, I was kind of like, what the hell am I doing here? You know? Like, sure, I can build, like, these. I can solve these, like, little mini problems that you give in, like, these computer science competitions. It's, it's all like, here, use this. You know, implement this algorithm is basically, all it is is you got to figure out the algorithm they're asking you to implement, and you just got to implement it. Um, and I had a lot of, like, imposter syndrome with that, but what I've quickly figured out was like, okay, everybody kind of, like, everybody kind of is at the point where nobody, like, nobody really knows what they're doing. They're just like, this is what we think we should be doing, and so this is what we're going to do. Um, so, yeah, I think, like, one of the, one of the things about that is just like, you can. I'm talking about just, like, contributing to open source libraries in general. It's just like, if you can do that, you're already way ahead of most devs. And I would strongly suggest that people who are learning Python, and this is totally nothing to do with my side projects anymore. This is the only side project I want to talk about. People who are learning Python should do it by just doing a bunch of projects. And there's so much free information out there. There's so much free information Online. My blog, like, Python Algos, what you guys do at PI Bytes, like, real Python, all of these people. There's also a Site called Learn Python. You can go on Reddit, you can go on R Python on Reddit, there's so much people putting free information out there that if you want to learn Python, you can just go and you can find the information and you can find the projects to do and there are people who are telling you what kind of projects you can do to learn. And there's this structure, there's a little bit of structure around it. I think we're moving towards having more structure for this free online information. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, like in terms of my side projects, I really just have that one, uh, to advertise. Um, yeah, yeah, I agree with you at the open source, I mean, and building projects, we, uh, yeah, we talk about that every week and uh, it's, it's through the building of projects where it all comes together and it's, it's harder. Um, but that's where you see the real world and then the open source, the GitHub, the collaboration part, a lot of imposter syndrome as well. And it all comes together and you really grow a lot if you start doing that. So that's a good point. Which brings me on the mindset, of course, the mindset. Julian, question, she's not here, but he will slap me if I don't ask it. Kai, you kind of answered it already, but I'm still going to frame it. How is mindset important for a developer? What is your take on mindset? Yeah, I actually think mindset is important. Just this is like the most important thing that you could have. Like you could be like a staff level engineer, and if you don't think that you're worthy of being a staff level engineer, you're going to do things to mess up. Um, the, like, being like, it's not just important for developers, I think it's just important for your entire life, like having the right mindset when you go into things of being like, especially when you're learning something. So if you're learning to code, having the mindset of being like, okay, I'm going to mess this up, but that's okay because you, if you mess things up, you're going to learn from that experience. Right. Um, and you don't always have to be nothing. Nothing is ever perfect the first time around. In fact, if you are building a program and your program runs without bugs the first time around, that's a little bit suspicious, you know, like what's going on if you really tested it enough. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's kind of like, I think the growth mindset mentality is really important to this. It's just important to understand, even when you fail at things, when things don't work, as long as you can take that as a learning experience. And you say, okay, I know what mistake I made here. I'm not going to make that mistake again, or at least I'm going to try my best to avoid making that mistake in the future. Then you can take all these little building blocks of every single time that you learn this, learn from your mistakes and you can build it into this really strong. I almost knocked my headphones out. You can build it into this really strong platform for you to know how to build things and to understand that you have a resilience. And it's not just when it comes to learning and building things, but just this applies to everything else in life as well. Beautiful. And I think there's also a bit of a mismatch with what people think is the ideal or the real developer life versus. Oh yeah, or whatever promoted versus what is real life like? You had this post on LinkedIn about looking things up on Google. I think it's the real developer and then the image of a developer being certified in x. Right? And it's just not true. Right? I mean, it's true they have value, of course, and I'm not discarding it. Yeah, but the real world is that you constantly look things up on Google Stack overflow and that's just true. Right? I mean, you have to be knowledgeable and have to do the right search, but you still will be searching even with years and years of experience. Right. So I think that triggers that in buzzer sim as well, that people have this image of the perfect developer, but that's just not true. Yeah, tell me a bit about that post. We will link it below, but yeah, maybe you can capture the image better for me. I'm not sharing my screen or anything. And why you posted it, what was the message and what is potentially the problem there? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. This is actually kind of, this is really funny for me, this post is like my second, like kind of like viral post on LinkedIn did pretty well. Yeah. Shout out to Kristen for telling me about this. She was like, posts that do the best on LinkedIn are ones with text and image. And I was like, oh really? I had no idea. I was like, let me try this out. And so I posted a few meme like image, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is totally a meme. And I was like, I found it. And I was like, I found it and I kind of laughed at the picture and I was like, haha, this is so relatable. And so I was like, I wonder if LinkedIn also finds this relatable and that's why I posted it. But yeah, so the image is basically like there's like it's the same guy and it's like shows like you know, looking up like how to convert into double or something like that in Java and then like five times Java certified, seven times SAP certified, blah, blah blah. And like, you know, like this just reminds me of me for, to be honest, like I have a bunch of certifications, I have a bunch of like roles that you can see. Like I have a lot of experience. Like for like I started like professionally coding when I was 16 and like I've basically been professionally coding now for like nine years. And I still look this stuff up on Google. I'm like, and I even write python blogs. I write tutorials about how to use Python and I look up things like how do I find all of the XYZ? I look things up, like how do I use Keras to build this neural network? And I have written tutorials on Keras. I think one of the things that people should understand about this is just nobody's perfect. And your memory is really only so good. If you try to remember everything, you're going to beat yourself up over it. If you just know I can go and find this, what do I search? If you know what to search, if you know the problem you're looking to solve and you know how to find that kind of material, then you're good, you're amazing. And that's really when I was a software developer in Amazon. Like, you know, I think like when I first got that offer out of college, I was like, wow, I made it. You know, here it is like top tier. Everyone wants to go be a software dev at a faang company. And so I was there and then I was like, dang, everybody around me must be really smart. And I'm like googling stuff and I'm like, man, I'm taking like two or 3 hours just to figure out how to google this super simple thing. And then like when I would ask my, like my mentor there, I had like one guy there who's like a senior engineer, I guess he, he was kind of like a mentor. I, I would bug him whenever I had questions. He was like, oh, let me google that. And I was like, huh, that's exactly what I would do. And so I posted this just because I thought it was funny. But yeah, a lot of people have messaged me, and they're kind of like, googling is not a bad thing. I was like. I was like, did you read the caption? I literally wrote in the caption, I spend in a certain amount of time googling. Like, that's. It's funny to me because it describes me, it reflects me. And, like, people, like, message me about things. Like, they're, like, someone actually messaged me and they're like, what did you mean by this? I was like, what do you mean? What did I mean by this? I don't know. I just thought it was funny. That's quite some commands and back and forth over the post. Yeah. But I just wanted to bring it up because it's kind of in the context of the mindset and the things we tell ourselves and the false beliefs, and I found it was pretty relevant for us developers. Yeah. Anyways, we're coming to the end. Last question. What are you reading? What am I reading? Oh, wait, let me. Or listening to consuming. I actually. Where did the book go? I think it might be in my living room. I just read the hard thing about hard things. Let me see if I. I just posted this. I just read that book. That was the one by Ben Horowitz, and now I'm reading a book called the Startup of you, which is the one from Reid Hoffman. And what else? I read blogs. I read people's blogs online. I go on LinkedIn, and I'll read the LinkedIn articles. I'll read people's blogs. Um, you know, I watched the last, uh, the last Pie Bites podcast. Um, you know, so let's see. Yeah, that's pretty much, uh, what I read and what I listen to. Um, I think if I were to say, like, there was one thing for. Oh, um. I don't know if there's any particular books that I would recommend for Python, because I didn't read any books for Python. Um, for mindset. Oh, there's a really good one. Grit by Angela Duckworth, I think is her last name. That book. Really good. Yeah, that one's really, really good. And that one just kind of perseverance. Right. And persistence and plowing through difficult things. Right. Yep. That's what learning is all about. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. Yeah. And great titles. Yeah. We will add those to the Pywyte's books website. A lot of entrepreneurship there. Yeah, yeah, I'm very into it. Yeah. And articles. I agree. Like, I was on my pocket this morning on my phone and just bookmarked articles, and sometimes it's just nicer. To also have some quick wins. Yeah, well, awesome. Anything else you want to share before we wrap? Not really. Connect with me on LinkedIn if you want to ask questions about Python or entrepreneurship. I post a lot about mindset and thanks for having me on. Great. Yeah, Eugene, this was. I had a blast, and thanks for sharing all these insights, and we'll link your details below. And thanks a lot for being on the Py Bytes podcast. Yeah, super fun. Thanks for having me. We hope you enjoyed this episode. To hear more from us, go to Pibytes friends, that is Pybit es friends, and receive a free gift just for being a friend of the show and to join our thriving slack community of Python programmers, go to Pibytes community. That's pibit es forward slash community. We hope to see you there and catch you in the next episode. Um, it's. It's a joke. So why did the Java developer need glasses? Because he couldn't reach art. All right. Yeah, that was the only joke I wanted to share.