Pybites Podcast

Pybites Podcast #168 - Joao Pedro Chaib

Julian Sequeira & Bob Belderbos

A brief description for the time being for episode 168:

In this episode Julian interviews Joao Pedro Chaib (JP), a Software Engineer based in Sydney, Australia. JP achieved what so many people dream of every day: transitioning from another industry into the Tech Industry, all while moving countries!

Listen to JP's story where he shares the journey, the many mindset hurdles that he overcame along the way, and tips for others looking to make this change. As always, mindset plays a BIG part!

If you'd like to follow JP you can catch him here:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joao-pedro-chaib-39839915a/

Instagram: @jotachaib

Github: https://github.com/jpchaib

Learn more about _nology, the company that supported JP on his journey in Sydney: https://nology.io/

Join the Pybites Community here: https://pybites.circle.so

Learn more about Pybites' Coaching here: https://pybit.es

I think you should get a pop up now. Right? Yeah, just did. Okay. All right. My audio is okay? Yeah, yeah, perfect. Okay, cool. Just want to make sure it's using this microphone. Yeah. Okay. Welcome back to the Pie Bytes podcast, everyone, this is Julian. I'm not here with Bob. I'm actually here with a special guest today named JP Scheibe. He's joining us from here in Sydney. So it's nice to have another australian here. Very, very excited. Now, before I introduce JP or he introduces himself, I'll just let you all know that this is an episode where I'm going to talk. It is mindset related. There is some tech. Okay, so I just turn it off already. But JP has a fantastic story of moving from a sort of non tech role into a tech role. And this, to me, is. Is a special story that I just love sharing because I think a lot of people right now need to hear that these things are possible, that the coding world, the tech world is something that they can get into. And that's why I love sharing stories like this. So, JP, welcome to the podcast. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself? Well, yeah, thank you so much, Julian. I appreciate the chance of joining this project of yours, Bob, you know, and yeah, I'm JP, actually. Jean Piedre Tribe. JP became my Aussie name. You know, Juan, it's impossible to come out of their mouth, but yeah, it's JP. It works just fine for me. As I said, I'm not, I'm not. I don't hold a bachelor in computer science or anything. I do have a bachelor in engineering, mechanical engineering to be more precise. And I got the bachelor in university back in Brazil, where I was bought in my hometown, Belarusonti. And after that, I scrambled through a couple of industries, manufacturer industry. And then after arriving Brazil in Australia, I went to the construction industry to get that PR, to get that visa. It was a means to an end. And once I got the PR, I had a chance to actually think about my career and what I wanted for the few years ahead of me. And the obvious choice for me was coming to tech. So, yeah, I searched a lot of ways to make that change, to make that transition to tech, and I end up finding knowledgy, which is a company that provides training for web developer web development and also works with you to get professional experience right after the trainings end. So that's what I am right now. I graduated in the accelerator tech program from Knowledgey in, what was it? September 2022. And 2023, I was already working in tech right now I'm working for the government, an agency called revenue, new software. And we collect a revenue in behalf of the state government and also distribute that, you know, to other services, police, education, you know, fire, firemen, museums, all kind of infrastructure, you know, grants. And right now I'm working a couple of different platforms, developing and writing code in the agency. Yeah, that's cool, man. So that's the end of the podcast. You've covered off everything and that's it. So question you, you work for revenue. Do you get to keep any of the revenue? I don't, unfortunately. Well, so I am a citizen. I'm almost a citizen. So yeah, somehow a small fraction of it comes on my way too. Yeah. Comes back to you in a different way. Yeah. Nice. So look, that's a wonderful story in a nutshell, and I really appreciate sharing that. For background, one thing I'll just clarify for everyone is this company that you worked with knowledgey, that you were a client student through there? Yeah, employee. Yep. They're a Sydney based company here in Australia. And I got to meet some of their team over the past year and they're just wonderful humans and they shared your story with me, JP. I was like, I gotta, I gotta meet this guy. And selfishly, it's just nice to have australian people in this industry that I can talk with. But I do have to mention one thing. It's not Python. What language are you using? It's not. Yeah. Or the curriculum is focused on web development. So you know, JavaScript, Java APIs in NES J's spring boot. So it's really focused on web development, which is really good. SQL as well. But in revenue, when I make the transition and start working the project, they gave me a lot, a lot of support to upskill myself. And I did one of the course that I did through these one and a half years that I'm, there was a machine learning course on TAFE. And you know, it's purely, purely Python. You know, all the ML models, you know, all the machine learning models there they use. It's, it's true school in, in Python. And hey, I must say my first impressions of Python is the best. It's, it's, it's such a versatile language. Isn't it nice? I'm not speaking just out of my mouth. I do believe that. Yeah, no, no, I love it. And that's the thing, right? I mean, so many of the technologies that you're using and that you're talking about, people who are learning Python end up using them too. Right. Knowing. And some of them are very foundational. Using APIs, talking to databases and making these requests and so on. They're quite universal. Every language just has their different syntax for talking to them. And that's it. Yeah. So I just want to get that out there first and foremost. And, you know, knowledge, it's a wonderful place and they're doing cool things for people. Underrepresented groups. I love it. And that's why I really like highlighting what they do when I can. But back to you and your story. So, as you alluded to or mentioned, you made a move across the planet, right. It's not just changing jobs as well. Right. You went from an engineering background to the tech role, but you also moved countries. You. There's a certain mindset that comes along with this kind of growth and these changes. So can you do me a favor and just for the audience here, what kinds of stuff, what kinds of things ran through your head that made you say, this is something I'm going to do, and also, maybe I shouldn't. And then what pushed you through all of that? Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, when I was living in Brazil and I was working for a really well known company, multinational international company there in the manufacturing industry, and just after I graduated, I received my bachelor degree. And with that bachelor degree, I had a chance. Australia government, actually, the home affairs actually provides a year and a half work experience visa, a full work experience visa for those that had graduated in engineering back in my uni. So I thought about a chance and I had a time, I had a deadline, actually, to get that visas, right? I had two years after I graduated to apply to that visa. So that played its part. You know, it was in my mind, should I go? Shouldn't I go? I'm going to miss that chance and am I going to regret when I get older to stay in Brazil and not pursue that possible dream? I had some overseas experience while in uni and it was amazing. I went to Belgium for a year there and it was the best year of Uni for me. So I thought, you know what? I'm going to chase that adrenaline again. Yeah. So that, that played, that played a big part of it. In it, yeah. And then, of course, you know, a lot of fears around, am I going to get the job? You know, am I going to be able to communicate in, in this Aussies laying, you know, and in a, in a second language? And I said to myself, you know, there's only way to know. The only way, one way to know and it's doing it right. With it came financial concerns as well. I did good to myself in those two years that I was after uni, so I managed to get some savings there. So I was financially prepared for what was coming. I didn't plan for Covid, though, and really. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't. You know, I didn't have my bunker built. Yeah. Stocking food and everything now. So toilet paper and toilet paper. Lots of it. Who know? So, yeah, the primary fee for coming overseas were financially. And then after I came here, I found out that opportunities were all around, especially for engineers. There's a lot. There are a lot of engineers. There's a lot of engineers from my uni coming to Sydney into Australia. So they're also this community supports that I had that helped me. You know, you should chase these visa. You should chase, you know, this kind of. This kind of industry because there's a lot of opportunity there, and they are paying for the visa they are sponsoring, so that made much easier. But in the end, Julian, I think it. I think it's resilience. You know, you have to believe yourself. Yep. You have to look at the goal and nothing else for a while, at least, but, yeah, resilience, for sure. And when I move to. Yeah, and that's the country moving. Right. The change, but changing careers, that came with different fears. Will it be a good professional? You know, we'll enjoy actually sitting down in coding since I've been doing such, let's say, more active roles in management and, you know, with a lot of pressure from peers, suppliers, clients and. Yeah. So different fears for different problems. Yeah, I would say I like that. Different fears for different problems. Yeah. So one thing I do want to jump on that you sort of addressed at the very start of that is you had to essentially look at the opportunity cost of either staying in the Brazil or taking a chance and going overseas. Now, the same sort of mindset comes to that career decision as you're talking about. Right. What's the opportunity cost? Do I stay in this engineering role where I'm doing these things? You said, the pressures, the clients, the deliverables and so on. Also a little more physically active than a coding job, which is great, or do you. What's the. What's the opportunity cost of not pursuing something like coding, which is something you had an interest in in the first place? So I really like that. And that resilience and focus and like you said, focusing on the goal, at least for a little bit, making the all encompassing vision is super important and it's something we constantly talk about on this podcast. We're saying what is your goal? Let's work backwards from there on what you need to actually do to attain it. And I love that you thought outside the box because you could still do those things in Brazil. Heck you could do it in North America which is arguably closer. Yeah, 9 hours from my city. Yeah, yeah. Not, you know, 24 hours worth of flying across in weird directions. Right. So I love that you were thinking outside of the box and that, you know, if I was to talk to, I guess the average person that we speak to and I say why dont you consider moving overseas where you could probably find a software developer job much easier in say I dont know, lets say Belgium because you mentioned Belgium before, it might be easier to find one there than in San Francisco where the demand is. Theres so many people going for those roles, people wouldnt even consider that. So I love that you thought outside the box and said screw it, I'm going to do it, why not? And there was that whole balance. Exactly that Julie. And it's funny that you mentioned that because making that transition here in Australia, and I'm talking financially speaking, it's much easier because all the tax brackets because your tax a bit less. If you're making a less money, your quality of life and your lifestyle doesn't change that much. You know, you can keep doing the stuff that you're doing since the currency worth a lot, you know, in the country itself and you know, if you have your wage, you know, your annual salary, you can still pretty much do most of the things. It's going to be hard to save of course, but your lifestyle can remain the same. You know, back in Brazil that, that big cut in a salary can cost you a lot of things, you know. Yeah but also when you, when you spoke about looking at the cost of the change, that cost comes financially, but it also come, it also comes with, you know, on your health, in your quality of life too, you know, working on tech has a greater flexibility and on the long run, on the long term, thinking about, you know, building a family with my partner, being there for my kids, you know, in the future. That also came as an advantage, you know, for me to pick the tech industry too. No, I love that. Yeah those are things that I think that's a lot of forward thinking there that most people may not consider, right. With when picking, picking tech as a position or as a career, I should say. So speaking of that then and that transition into tech. Right. So you're saying a whole bunch of different fears and challenges. And so talk us through how did you want to find knowledge as the place to be to then, you know, learn the skill set you needed to break in, and it talks through all the fears and worries that came with that, moving from the mechanical engineering role. Sure. Yeah. So as I said before, I consider a lot of ways to get into tech. One of them was self learning. You know, I'm going to do these courses, you know, from different sources, from different learning platforms and try to apply to some junior jobs out there. That was one of the alternatives. Another one was true knowledge and true, similar, similar companies that pretty much supply the same service training. And looking at the curriculum knowledge, looking at, you know, all the reviews in LinkedIn and talking to actually the people that work, the staff that work in those places. I spoke with Vel from knowledge. She's amazing. She was, I'm in touch with her since the beginning of, even before, maybe six months before I made that actually change. And so now we have like, this amazing friendship and she, she was there for me since the beginning and, you know, providing information, providing feedback from other people, explaining really clearly and in a transparent way how. How everything works. So I ended up choosing ology, which I found through a simple Google search, you know. Yeah, they, they do have some, all the media, like LinkedIn, for instance, they are there and you can find them there. But myself, I found them through Google and then I got in touch with them and I consider university, too, which will be a greater cost. And it would take much longer for me to be ready for the market as a professional. Although I do believe that it would be amazing to learn some fundamental, some basic on computer science. This is something that I feel that I lack still, you know, without that background. But hey, there's always time to learn. There's always places where you can go to learn. It's really matter that you're working in a place that you can do everything else, which is the Internet. You know, we draw information for your work, you can withdraw information for yourself and. Yeah, yep. No, that's cool. I love that. And that's a, that's a strong point you make there. So I. You don't have a comp, Sci or computer science degree, right? Yeah. But through applied learning, through building, because when you were with knowledge, you were building a capstone project, I believe, with another group, if my understanding is correct, and then you're able to prove those skills through that applied learning and be positioned and get the job at revenue. And I think that's some sort of inspiration that people need to hear, because one of the greatest barriers we see of people coming into the tech space and the python space and coding in general, is I don't have a computer science degree. I don't have that piece of paper. I'll never get it. And certainly even the employers out there listening and watching this say the same thing. Oh, you need to have a comps. I agree, to be able to write a single line of code. And I think that's a fallacy that people need to just get over, because with the change in technology, with, as you said, the Internet and AI now as well, you can learn to code and not have that comp sci piece of paper. Now, don't get me wrong. As you said, there is something to get from that degree. There is that deeper understanding of how things work, and that's fine. That doesn't necessarily mean you can't write code and you can't write good code and good quality code. So I really appreciate you sharing that and an example of that. It's all my, my colleagues knowledge. You know, you have people with a background nature, people with a background with no background. Sometimes, you know, young fellows there, young colleagues that, you know, came straight off, you know, working festival chains and, you know, made the transition. They go well with the tools, you know, with the language. They, you know, have that old logical mind and can write codes, uh, as better than anybody else. Yep, I'm with you. I mean, one of the people currently going through our coaching program called PDM, he's a carpenter by trade. I was meeting, chatting with him this morning, having a check in, and, you know, we were talking about carpentry, building houses and woodworking. And he's making that transition because he just loves coding and it's exciting to him. And funnily enough, much more creative than an outlet for him than the carpentry business now. So it's just cool, you know, a lot of other roles have kind of have similar mindsets that you can utilize in the coding realm or in the tech industry. So we're talking about how, as a carpenter is laying out projects. You know, he's figuring out the pieces, doing all this PM project management stuff before he builds. And that's kind of what we do as developers, before you build an application, have to lay out the whole foundation, how it's going to work, the pieces you need, and so on. So I think that's, um, that's really cool. And that's one of the reasons why knowledgey spoke to me when I was talking about what they did, I thought it was super cool. They're taking people of different walks of life and getting them working together as well and built building web apps and whatever. So I thought that was very cool. So now I'm going to ask you a tricky one. There had to have been actually, you know, I gotta ask you this one as well. When did you move to Australia? How long ago? That was four, four and a half years. Four and a half years? Yeah. March 2020. Yeah. I'm, I'm super impressed. As you were describing your time with knowledgey, you said young fellas, and I was like, yeah, such an Aussie thing to say. Well done, you can stay. Thank you. I got my citizenship right there. Yeah, there's your citizenship. Done and dusted. All right. So talking about your time, learning the language now, this is the next obstacle. A lot of people have that we talk to that, that's why I want to touch on this. There would have been things that you didn't understand. There would have been times where you were just like, I just don't get it. You're bashing your head against the wall. So tell me about that. And how did you push through or just say, I actually know. Going to put words in your mouth. What did you do? Yeah, look, Julian, there are a lot of complex concepts in coding. No, if you go to object oriented programming languages, you get all that polymorphism and abstractions, and it can be tough to actually consolidate as a basic knowledge. It takes experience. You have to do it and do it and do it probably to build an interface and an interface to work well in a way that is supposed to be an interface. You have to do it a couple of times, I reckon. Not only that, but the moment that you start understanding algorithms and their efficiency, getting, uh, uh, I o notation and understanding the, you know, time notation and memory notation, that can be a little bit tough, especially if you don't have a method, a mathematical background. Right. You know, what, what the hell is a log n and why is the log n and why it takes longer if I do a for loop here. Again, that's, that's the basics. And then you, you get to the tools that already apply all those concepts in a nutshell, and you don't see it because in the background authentication and token authentication through APIs, it can get really complex, especially if you don't have the tools to see what's happening in the background yet and access the network and see, okay, that's my request. My requests are it's bringing this head and this body. Now I'm trying to understand. And what you have to do is get your hands dirty. That's what worked for me. That's why it's so important, those capstones projects, the knowledge proposed. And you learn by failing. You fail once, you fail twice, and in some point you're going to change. I swear to you, you're gonna feel amazing after you make it. And, and if you do, that means that tech is for you. You know, if you get that drill, if you get the adrenaline pump and say, yes, that's, this is working. My website, it's, it's online. Yeah, but, yeah, I would say for me, authentication, part of it, it's too hard, you know, but again, it's out of experience and always going to senior developers and speaking to them with an open heart. There are a lot of good stuff in the industry, a lot of capable, understanding, passionate about tech as well. So if you share their passion on tech, they're going to open their hearts as well. They're going to say, hey, you know what, young fella? Sit down. Xma, you know, let's work this out. And, you know, you see the coding, you understand a bit more about best practices and, yeah, you get your work done. Oh, man, you speak in my language, you may as well be speaking python. This is great because so everyone listening and watching this is completely unscripted, right? Completely unscripted. So I couldn't have imagined you would. The two things you touched on, right? Learn by failing, which learn by building, right? So you got to build those projects, you got to get into it, get your hands dirty and start coding and fail. And fail upwards, you know? Yes. And the second thing, engaging those senior to you, I mean, if you think about it, how does a kid learn? They learn from their parents, they learn from the people around them, where they watch what they do, they emulate, they figure it out through failing, falling over. Same thing with us as developers. And if you have those senior developers around, you capitalize on that luck, on that blessing that you have those people there to talk to and bounce ideas off and get them to code review your stuff and everything. I think those are two super valuable tips. And okay, here's one I'm going to throw at you. People don't have a senior developer immediately around them. What would you suggest they could do to find that person? Yeah, well, sometimes not even a person. Is it sometimes, sometimes an AI that can help you out with those issues and you know those blockers out there which use it as you can. I'm using AI weekly to solve problems and bring better solutions and clean code to my peer reviews. But if you feel like talking to a person as well, communities in the Internet, they are there and they are rich. You know, overflow, stack, overflow, LinkedIn itself, you can find someone and try to engage. But there are so many forums in Ethernet and forums sometimes specialize. I bet that you already spoke about foreigns in python here. And there are probably many. The same goes for Java, SQL. People that have the knowledge, a lot of them wants to share the knowledge too, you know, and when they see it, someone with a question, a forum, they get itchy and they need to give the best solution out there. Yeah, yeah, I would say that. Yeah, Julie. Well, and if you didn't know there's a pie bytes community, that's. Yes, like message boards and forums and you can ask you questions and everyone loves jumping in and helping and sharing. So I'll throw that in there as a little plug. Thanks, man. No, that's great. And that, that's a really good tip. You know, just go and seek these communities because that's where you build these connections. The amount of people that we come across in, what we do, that they're the only coder that they know, they're the only person who has a passion for Python or Java or whatever, none of their friends care. That's me, by the way. None of my friends like to code. All my closest friends that I hang out with on the weekends and stuff, none of them like to code. So I built, I built a freaking community because I didn't have one. So. So, no, that's a super valuable tip, I think. Go and seek the community. If you are finding it tough doing this solo, right, AI can, can help it. Just can't give you that mate ship. It's true. The friendship that goes with it. The French. Exactly. Not yet anyway. You cannot drink a beer with chats PT. Not yet. That's true. Yeah, exactly. Not yet. I mean, we can and we should go do that. Oh, one of these days. Yeah, I'm waiting on that invite, by the way. I want to go to Central coast. Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, you have to come up here then. They're nice. I like that you do that. Yeah. All right, well, that's awesome. So I appreciate all the insight you've shared here, JP. And we've intentionally, everyone we've intentionally not talked about the tech that JP uses at work because that is confidential. Stuff. So, just so you know, we didn't miss that. We just don't want to talk about its government, that sort of thing. And it's my government, australian government. So I live here. Don't come knock on my door. Okay. Yeah. Don't look under the sheets here. But anyway, this has been so insightful and so helpful and inspiring, I think, to hear I. How you've made that journey, not just across the planet, but from your career. You're in a wonderful job. You're happy. You're enjoying this growth. You have time to learn and grow every week, which is freaking amazing as well. If you were to give a tip, I guess, for everyone as we wrap this up, we will go to books in a second, everyone. Don't worry about that. But if there's a tip for people who are maybe on the edge, kind of thinking I should get into tech, I don't know. Or if they're even just fearful about making a decision like this. What would you say? That's a cool one, Julian? I would say two things. First one, I would say, don't be hard of yourself. You know, don't think less of yourself because you couldn't solve something right on spot right there. So don't be hard of yourself every day. It's a win. And the second thing is never stop learning. Never stop learning when what? When we're learning. And that's. That's. For me, I'm not sure if this applies to everybody, but when I'm learning, I get humble, you know, and. And that's. That's the skill that humbility makes you be transparent with your colleagues, your peers, and, you know, and get the more information, because the more. I don't know that you say, the more that you know, that's. That's how I think. So, you know, go to. Go to those learning platforms. You know, I'm doing this. This whole. This whole algorithm learning on in Algo August expert.com. and it's really good. You know, it has bunch of code problems there. You know, that can be used for interviews as well. Oh, nice. Something similar to code wards. Yeah, yeah, it's really good. You know, they have their own, you know, browser coding, ide, and you can do all your stuff there. You can set your set. So tests and everything. So never stop learning. That's cool. I think the industry needs us to never stop learning as well. Now, I love the tips. We always push that constant growth in learning. In fact, actually, one of our clients, again, I just met with another client before this podcast. And he said to me, what's been inspiring about PDM and going through our coaching is it's new to not know. So for him, he goes, there was a stagnation with the previous role and the industry he was in. And so being back in an environment where he doesn't know something is, you know, new to him and that's exciting and that's what's keeping him going. So if you find yourself in that situation, it's time for growth, right? And it's good that you're growing. So that's really cool. The other thing I'll say, which is funny, I think some people are going to be giggling to themselves as they're listening to this. We have a coding platform, exactly what you're talking about. But for Python, hey, I'm going to. I'm going to check that out. I'll give you access. Don't worry about it. We'll sort that out. Awesome. But that's for Python, right? So don't worry. It's just cracking up, cracking me up as we're talking through this stuff. So that's wicked, man. I really appreciate you sharing all this insight and being an inspiration to people. And the people around you, I'm sure, are very inspired by the things that you're doing and the journey you've taken. If people want to chase you down, look you up, chat more about what it is you're doing and the decisions you've made and how you did it, where can they find you? Yeah, they can find me in LinkedIn. Julian. I'm there. Write on my name. Jean Pedro Shib. It's hard to spell, so maybe I've sent it through. Yeah, put a link in the description. We put a link. That's a good idea. And I'm in GitHub as well. Even though. Yeah, even though I've been working in different, different git platforms for my current job. So you won't see a lot of commits there, unfortunately. But, you know, I have some projects there and. Yeah, and they're public as. And they are all public. Everything that I do is public. Yeah, that's cool. Not too high, actually. Well, for now. For now. For now. That's just in the private repos. Yeah, exactly. Nobody know. No, that's cool. We'll. We'll have these things in the. These links in the notes for people. Um, and look, Bob and I, we wrap up every podcast with a, um, question about what you're reading. So if you are reading anything, what is it? Yeah, um, I'm actually reading two. Well, this is. I'm reading two books at a time. Uh, this one is a gift from my brother in law. It's, uh, Carlos Gracie biography, uh, which is the creator of BJJ in Brazil. I do not practice, uh, brazilian jiu jitsu myself, but he's a legend. He put Brazil where it is, mixed martial arts and even helped judo to get that publicity. And brazilian jiu jitsu, it's known to worldwide. So I'm reading his biography, which is amazing. And the second one, which reading, because, you know, you cannot finish this. It's how to reassess your chest. The fourth edition, you know, by Jeremy Sillman. Funny enough, both books are. They share the concept of not getting your butt kicked all the time. So I was getting my butt kicked by. By a couple of friends in chats a lot. So I say, you know what? Wow. I'm going to learn a bit more, which is amazing. It's really good that's there. Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. It's funny, quite funny that you say that, because Bob and I are both talking about chess these days. He's just started playing a lot with his kids. I've got the Harry Potter Lego chess set. So I've been trying to teach my kids, but probably should start with a traditional set because it's hard to tell the pieces. Apartheid. But one thing, a goal that I've set with Bob and I is if we, you know, reach the success that we're looking for, by December this year, we're going to buy ourselves these remote chess sets. And I don't know if you've seen them, but they're these chess sets that you each keep one, and then the move I make on mine replicates on his. It's connected by the Internet, and so we can play with. Play chess together from the other side of the planet. Right? So that's how cool. I mean, we could just use an app, but I. Screw that. We want to see. Yeah, definitely. You want to see. You want to see the bishop coming out of nowhere. Yeah, exactly. I want to see. I want to see him lose. They even simulate the checkmate with the king for really? Oh, wow. It's pretty cool. Oh, that's fun. So I can't wait to do that. That's cool, man. I like. I like those books I'm currently reading. I don't have it here with me, but I don't know. Have you heard of HP Lovecraft? HP Lovecraft? Yeah, if you're. I have not if you're into. It's like old school horror from, like, the early 19 hundreds when there was no horror tv shows and movies, so it was all written. And their version of horror is very, you know, psychological and stuff that would creep them out. But for us, we'd be like, what? That's just a G rated tv show. But his writing, hP, Lovecraft, his writing inspired so much horror, like Stephen King and stuff that was done that's more modern. And so I've always wanted to read his stuff. And I found a book that was, like a collection of stories from that he wrote. And I'm reading through it, and it's. It's not easy. Some of it's quite kind of boring. But I'm like, I'm gonna read this. Yeah, but it's old, and I'm enjoying it. I'm seeing where certain things are connecting with things from these days and so on. So it's good. That's cool. I have. I have. I have read a couple of Sydney Sheldon, even though it's not a horror movie, it's really suspense and thick suspense and, yeah, I can. I can. I can totally relate with that, with that horror thrill. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not generally a horror reader. I'm like, no, I want to sleep at night, so give me some action stuff instead. All right, look, JP, thank you so much for. For joining me today. Thank you so much for sharing and being so open and candid. I hope you. Did you enjoy it? Was it good? I did. I did. That was really good. Hey, that's my first podcast ever, Julian. Oh, nice. Very natural. Mandy, just be. Thank you. Just host your own or come co host with me any day. It's fine. All right, man. Well, look, thank you so much again. It's been a pleasure, and, yeah, we'll see. I'll see you down in Sydney. You pop up here for a beer. We'll do that. Definitely. All right, let's do it. Thanks, man. Thanks again. Thanks, everyone, for listening. We'll be back next week. Cheers. All right.