Career Growth and Finding New Paths

Andrea 0:00

I think maybe the common denominator is people are looking for growth in their career. For some that is what's the next level, what's the next role, you know kind of the typical career path, and for actually a lot of people it's. I don't think that path is for me. I want to do something different.

Julian 0:20

Hello and welcome to the PyBytes podcast, where we talk about Python, career and mindset. We're your hosts. I'm Julian Sequeira and I am Bob Beldevos. If you're looking to improve your Python, your career and learn the mindset for success, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started. Welcome back to the PyBytes podcast. Everyone, this is Julian. I'm here with a special guest today Andrea Goslink. Now, andrea is a friend of mine for many years now. We work together at Amazon Web Services and since we worked together, she's actually gone into a pretty cool career path for herself, helping people with their career paths and everything around that, and some of the insights today that she's going to share are really, really key to people who are thinking about making some career shifts or even stagnating in their jobs themselves. So I won't steal all the limelight now and ruin all the excitement. So, andrea, welcome to the Pipelights podcast and I'm so glad you're here. Why don't you give a quick introduction to everyone who doesn't know who you are?

Andrea 1:24

Thank you, Julian. I'm really happy to be here. Yeah, so I'm based in Central Coast, New South Wales, but originally from the US you probably noticed the accent Originally from Minnesota.

Julian 1:39

Yeah.

Andrea 1:40

I always tell people that you hear a hint of Fargo. That's why Comes out more times than other times. But yeah, so I've been in Australia, though, for really the last 12 years, on and off, since 1999, and have two kids and a gaggle of pets as well, and a gaggle of pets as well. And we, yeah, in terms of my career path, you know, I've always kind of worked under the umbrella of HR, and so I've always kind of toggled between an HR generalist role, where I'm directly supporting the business, and a client group, and then I've gone into specialist roles as well, too, where I'm going deeper in an area of I've done, you know, building HR tech, looking at HR processes, global expansion and that sort of thing. But, yeah, in 2022, I left the corporate world, took a bit of a sabbatical and then embarked kind of on a new career path of doing career coaching, leadership, executive coaching, and, yeah, really enjoy, you know, helping coach and mentor folks in the space of you know what they want their career path to look like and helping them navigate that.

Julian 2:58

That's awesome, I love it, and so actually, before I dive into that, I just want to clarify for everyone who's listening when I say Andrea and I knew each other at Amazon, it's not because I was constantly in trouble with human resources and pulled up and talked to so. It's because we work together. We work together and stuff. So that's good. But look, andrea, the people who listen to this podcast you know, yes, this is a tech podcast and we talk about Python and all of that. But part of what Bob and I do is we often talk about the mindset and the career thoughts and ideas and things like that that go along with just any sort of role, let alone Python development, because we know that when you are coding, there is all these other things to it. It's never you just get to code without worrying about mindset and your career path and development.

Julian 3:48

Now, the insights that you give, I think, are going to be universal to anyone, regardless of what position they're in, what kind of seniority in the role, what type of role it is. So everyone listening. This is really important stuff that Andrea is going to be talking about. So, make sure, take some notes, pay attention, hit rewind, do what you have to do pull over the car. I'm joking, don't do that. But, andrea, I think a good way to start right now would be what are the common pains? Where does the when people come to you? What is it that they're struggling with?

Andrea 4:22

You know, it can really happen. I think maybe the common denominator is people are looking for growth in their career. Maybe they feel a bit stagnant, I feel a bit stuck, and they want to find, um, you know, figure out where they want to go next. For some that is what's the next level, what's the next role, you know kind of the typical career path, and for actually a lot of people it's I don't think that path is for me. I want to do something different, and so you know, figuring out what that might be and then kind of walking through, you know, and working through any you know obstacles or barriers that come up as they kind of think about this new potential path for them.

Julian 5:08

That's cool Is is there anything that generally triggers that kind of a thought in people to? Because it's it's a pretty big deal to get to a point where you think what I've invested in and what I've done to date, maybe that's not where I want to be for the rest of my life. So, like, how do people come to that feeling? What are they? What happens?

Andrea 5:31

Yeah, that's a really good question and of course, I think it's highly personal. It can be different for, you know, for everyone. I think if there were some commonalities, I think you know, typically a few things have shifted for them. So you know what's important to them may have shifted. Different life priorities have come into play that have made them think differently about how they want to use their time and energy and where they want to invest. That Sometimes it's also a matter of, you know, their idea of success. You know they a lot of my clients are highly successful. They get, you know, tremendous positive reviews, they make great money, and yet you know they're just like Hmm, I don't know if I need to make more money, I don't know if I need to have a bigger team. You know I'm thinking. You know I kind of want to get out of my comfort zone a little bit and so, yeah, maybe it's just kind of following their interests. Their interests are going down a different path as well.

Julian 6:39

Yeah, that's really. That's really interesting because I feel the same. That's really interesting because I feel the same and you've made me reflect a bit on my journey and how, the points where I kind of pivoted my career. There were a couple of things there was. I think the first big one was having kids right, suddenly going oh wow, there's more to my life right now than working 20 hours a day and doing the crazy shifts and driving at night and all of that kind of stuff. And then I think the next one was growth.

Common Career Pain Points

Julian 7:12

Right, feeling that sensation of am I giving back? Am I able to give everything I possibly can in this role? Is it aligned with what I'm interested in? Is it detracting from my day? Do I wake up feeling miserable? These kinds of things. So that's really interesting. I like that, and I think a lot of people should ask those questions and they potentially don't. So if you're listening to this, start asking those questions, right, there's never a bad time to start considering these things. Are you happy? So, moving on from that, when people do come to you and you identify these issues, what are some of the tips? What are some of the kinds of things that you tell them? How do you support them through this?

Andrea 7:55

Well, look, I think a good coach doesn't tell people to do anything. I think you know we're we really um, try to be in a place where we ask a lot of questions. Help, you know, help the coachee understand their you know, different perspectives. Maybe, you know, shine a light on some new insights. Um, and, and I think you know what we, what I would usually try to do is, you know, help understand. You know, typically people have a little bit of an idea, right. They, they know they want to do is, you know, help understand. You know, typically people have a little bit of an idea, right, they know they want to do something different. So maybe it's starting to explore what that different thing might look like, you know, and so sometimes it's kind of even going back and just doing a little bit of, you know, food for thought. You know brainstorming, you know, like you've been given a million dollars to start a business, what does that business look like? Right, and you know, just getting them a chance to kind of play around with some exercises like that.

Andrea 8:53

Another thing is you know, once, once you know, maybe that next thing has been identified is understanding. You know what it might be holding them back. You know, in some cases it's, and it's maybe just kind of like I'll call it societal pressure, right, you know, we've only really have kind of been shown one pathway. You know this is the path you take, this is what career success looks like. And so, you know, kind of working against that grain might feel a bit uncomfortable for people.

Andrea 9:28

Sometimes it's a bit of, you know, pressure from others. You know feeling like, oh gosh, you know my parents, you know, would think I'm crazy if I were to leave this role. Or you know, my manager thinks I should really be thinking about moving up versus taking this lateral move. And sometimes it's, you know, our own pressure we put on ourselves. You know that fear of failing, or you know the fear of this, is a really risky move. Or you know, gosh, I've already invested all this time and money on this career path and this degree. What now, you know, is this you know, should I really leave? You know, leave all that to try something new. So I mean, I think there's a lot of things that can come up for people.

Julian 10:13

I like that last point. You made the sunk cost bias of going look, I've invested my career, I've invested all this university degree, master's, you know, years of experience into, say, finance and now I hate it, but that's what I studied in and that's what all of my network is in, that's what my connections, all my friends. I've built this entire life around this job. So the idea of changing to, say, become a Python developer or whatever else, right, that's scary, as for anyone, I totally get it, Especially, as you say, some of the people. They've earned these pretty successful careers. You know they're making great money.

Julian 10:53

And the idea of changing to something else Sometimes you might have to come in as a junior which takes a pay cut and there's all these pressures on you, Right? And I guess if someone had that kind of pressure where they're sitting there going, look, I have built this career in this specific niche or this topic, whatever, I want to change this, there's a huge confidence piece there. I have to have the courage to do that. How would you talk them through that? What are some things that you might ask them to consider to be able to make that choice you know whether it's right for them first of all, but to at least get them to seriously consider it and really make sure that they know that if they stay, I'm happy with that, If I move, I'm happy with that.

Andrea 11:45

Yeah, I think a lot of times this comes down to like a bit of a risk analysis. And and what I mean by that is you know, I think folks kind of want to feel you want to have everything figured out, they want to know that their decision is solid. But the truth is you can never really know right until you try it. You know, for these types of things, maybe you can get close right, you can interview people that are in the role or have some coffee chats, maybe you're lucky enough to do some sort of job shadow. But until you're in that role and performing it every day, you won't know if that's really going to tick all your boxes. So I think kind of the first step is to really some of the things I'll do with my clients is we'll look at okay, well, what are your deal breakers, what are the things that you absolutely must have in this role? Those are some things we can know right. So there probably is some sort of minimum financial line there, maybe not. That's a. You're a really good place if you don't have to worry about that.

Coaching Through Career Changes

Andrea 12:50

But you know, or you know, maybe it's about the hours or the travel, or you know what you want to make sure it allows you to do with your life outside of work. Maybe it is the actual, like you know, type of company. You know I want to work for a company that's in this space. So we kind of figure out what are those non-negotiables that we can know. The other piece is we'll usually look at like values, strengths and interests Again, try to, you know, triangulate on those to kind of figure out what is a good alignment for what you want and what you're seeking. But, like I mentioned, if I go back to that risk piece, I think the third piece is kind of really let's really think about this risk in a way that maybe takes a bit of weight off of it and so what that might look at like is okay. It might not work out.

Julian 13:43

Then what?

Andrea 13:45

Oh, okay, well, here's plan B, okay, what's another? What are some other options? Oh, here's plan C, here's plan, you know D. Other options if it does? Oh, here's plan c, here's plan, you know d. And so I think when people can kind of get past that first question or that first fear oh, it's not going to work, it might, you know I might say, okay, well, then, what you know, and then they'll realize there's a lot of other levers that they could pull um, that are available to them.

Andrea 14:10

I'm not saying any of this is easy, you know, as you know, you know it's challenging, but I think it. Any of this is easy, you know, as you know, you know it's challenging. But I think it's about that mindset of going, you know, uh, you know it's not like I'm going to be wildly successful or I'm going to be like homeless, right, it could be. Uh, okay, this might not work. And then I can boomerang back to where I was. I can, you know, look at this other option. I can do a couple other different things that are available to me.

Julian 14:37

I love that it's. It reminds me sometimes that we don't take our own advice, right. Especially those of us who are parents. We'll give this advice to our kids all the time. So just try it and try this new sport. If you don't like it, you can quit, it's fine. Yes, maybe a bit higher stakes, right, but that said, it's still this experimentation that you can do. Right, that you have no one stopping you from experimenting and trying these new things.

Julian 15:05

And if it doesn't work out as I hate to bring up an old Amazon term, but a two-way door decision, right, If you walk through the door and it doesn't work out, you just walk back out, go back to you, know what you were doing before or something adjacent, and so on. So it doesn't have to be that big scary thing. And something that you've mentioned to me in previous conversations that we've had is that you know, we're quite often taught or told or encouraged to think what does the next 3, 5, 15 years look like? Right, and but in this case it's very much. Well, just just cut it down a little bit. What are the next steps, right? What are the next one or two steps look like? So I really like that. That lowers the barrier of entry to make these changes and not be so afraid of it. So you've mentioned before as well this aspect of permission, giving yourself permission to do it. What's something that someone can tell themselves to give themselves permission? Is there anything you tell people to give themselves permission?

Andrea 16:14

Is there anything you tell people? Yeah, well, usually what? I'll ask them what would it take for you to give yourself permission?

Andrea 16:21

You know, and that will usually kind of surface. You know again oh, maybe you know I need to. You know, maybe I need to understand this role better or I need to know these aspects before I take this next step. You know, maybe maybe I just need to apply and see what happens. Right, a lot of times people are stopping themselves before they even apply for the role. They've already kind of written it off and going nope, I won't get it, no, it's not worth it.

Andrea 16:51

Nope, you know, apply, have a conversation. You can always say no. And so you know it no, it's not worth it. Nope, you know, apply, have a conversation. You can always say no, um, and so you know, maybe it's yeah, just apply for a few roles. You know, I don't have to take anything, I'll just apply. Yeah, um, so yeah, you know, I think it's a good question for people to pose for themselves. You know, what would I need, um, to give myself permission to do this, and and then you know to your point what would be the. Then you know to your point what would be the smallest step you could take to kind of move down that path, to start to explore, to start to experiment. And you know, I know, something else we talked about before is I do think there is sometimes this, you know, illusion of a perfect job or you know the ideal career path and you know the fact of the matter.

Andrea 17:34

And you know the fact of the matter is, you know, I think it's very rare that you know someone's going to find that one job, when they're what?

Andrea 17:41

22, that is, you know, perfect for them, that's going to lead them all the way through you know what 60, 65, maybe you know more, who knows these days, for the next 45 years, you know that they're going to be perfectly happy and I think that sounds actually more, you know that sounds, you know, more unlikely than actually being in a spot where you're going to, you know, be on the zigzaggy career path and experimenting and trying new things. And you know, I think I guess one of the to use another Amazonianism one of the thought experiments I like to have people think about in terms of giving themselves permission, is it's what Jeff Bezos used when he thought about leaving his you know, really good job on wall street at an investment firm and starting this risky internet business, and that's what he called um the regret minimization framework. And so, for him, he went through this thought exercise of okay, well, when I'm 80, if I decide to not go into this business, am I going to regret that more than having going into it and fail.

Julian 18:57

And for him.

Andrea 18:57

you know it was, you know it would just be heartbreaking not to try it, and he'd rather try it and fail than not try it at all.

Julian 19:05

Yeah.

Andrea 19:06

And so I think that's another kind of good mental exercise to take yourself through. If you're, you know, to say, okay, am I willing to try this and fail, you know? And? And or if I, if I just never tried at all, what's going to feel better for me? What am I going to regret less?

Julian 19:23

I love that. That form of thinking I find very simplistic and powerful and so easy for people to do, right, I mean, I remember we used to do that with the hours that you commit to the day job. You know, are you going to regret that you spent your prime let's say 30 to 40, that you spent that decade working overnight, working extra hours for a giant corporation? We won't get into those politics, but did you feel good about it and would you regret that on your deathbed? Or would you say I'm so glad I gave an extra 20 hours a week to that company when I was in my prime? If that's how you feel, fantastic. If it's not how you'd feel, then maybe it's time for a change, you know. And so I think it's incredible the kinds of things you help people do, because you know it might sometimes seem like, okay, I spent a month or two with people like this, but those changes that you help people make are life-changing. They, you know, reverberate down the timeline for the next 10, 20 years. You know which is. It's super cool.

Overcoming Career Change Hesitation

Julian 20:30

I really love that and just I want to, because you mentioned it that kind of illusion of the perfect job. As you said, your values, your wants, your needs. They change over the years. So what was your perfect job at 22? Being like a field engineer driving around Sydney repairing machines. Heaven on earth. I loved it, you know, whatever age I was when I did that. But very quickly that stopped being the perfect job because I had two kids and I had other priorities and things I wanted to do in life that didn't involve keeping me awake till four in the morning in a data center by myself somewhere. Keeping me awake till four in the morning in a data center by myself somewhere.

Julian 21:12

So it is, but often, as you've said, often people don't consider this stuff until maybe it's too late. Not too late, but they're feeling the pain and they're really stressed and they're really worried. So do you have any examples, and even your own right, because you also made this plunge too? Examples, and even your own right, because you also made this plunge too? You, you were in an incredible position when we worked together. You're incredibly senior. I used to have a lot of respect for you Not now, no, I'm joking. I'm joking, but you know, I remember you were quite senior when we worked together and so you went from that and you kind of made that big jump that people would be afraid to do. So do you have any experiences or personal anecdotes there you want to share?

Andrea 21:52

Yeah, yeah, well, sure, like I have a couple, I'll share, you know, a little bit of my own, but also share, you know, some examples of, you know where I've been able to help people. But yeah, in my own career path, you know, as I've looked back, I would say, you know, as I've looked back, I would say, you know, it was some of those what appeared to be risky decisions that are the ones that I'm probably the most grateful for, you know. So, pausing uni to come to Australia for the first time, like you know, a lot of people would probably be discouraged to do that. Like you just have one year left, finish it and then I'm like, nope, I'm, I'm gonna go backpack and, you know, work in Australia for a year. See you guys. Um, and I'm so glad I did that. Like I learned so much from that experience.

Andrea 22:36

Um, you know, and then I think you know I really kind of went into the mindset upon graduating um with my master's was like just really take the best opportunities over the next, you know, five, ten years, regardless of the location, regardless of um, you know what it might look like, you know, just make sure it's a really interesting role and that you're growing and learning, because that was kind of my next focus in my career, um, but yeah, like I've been, there's been times where, you know, I was tapped on the shoulder and encouraged to, you know, put my name into the hat for bigger roles and I I kind of resisted and I said no, actually, I think a you know, I'd rather be in this space.

Andrea 23:23

I went from leadership roles back into IC roles, like I fit into, you know, regional roles, into smaller roles and I think you know, all along I just had to kind of assess, you know, what are kind of the pillars I'm anchoring to. How is this meeting my needs right now, both on a professional and on a personal level, in terms of clients and people that I've worked with. You know I've had examples where, again, someone's you know highly successful in their role working for, you know, a big couple of the big, you know the fame companies.

Julian 24:00

Yep.

Andrea 24:01

And then, you know, decides that you know they want to try something different. And you know, but there's this like, ooh, okay, this is a smaller company. A lot of people probably haven't heard of this name before, you know. Do I want to make this leap right and yet you know they could see, okay, this is what's important to me right now. I can have a bigger impact in this role I can. You know, it's a smaller company but I have a bigger blast radius. You know, I think I could do some big, important work here. I have more exposure to the C-suite.

Andrea 24:33

Those were important for that client and so that was a really successful leap that they made. I had another client who they were thinking about changing functions. Um, they were looking at changing functions and they um decided, um, you know they were, they had the job offer pretty much in the bag, but they were still just like question of like, can I be successful over there? Am I making the right decision, you know, and so helping them making sure that it aligned to their values and what they wanted next and you know, really happy to report that you know they were very pleased with that move. Cool, I still like giggle at the email. They're like 10 out of 10, highly recommend. They were really pleased and and yeah look, I actually just had a client today. You know, email me and say, yep, I'm doing it, meeting with my boss, I'm going to start my own consultancy, and so you know taking that leap of starting up their own business.

Andrea 25:41

So, look, I think, I think the takeaway is there's so much opportunity for us, but we're kind of our biggest limiter, we're the one that's putting that throttle, you know, holding the throttle back. And so, yeah, I just think there's so many examples of people taking that leap, loving it going. Why didn't I do this sooner? Taking that leap, loving it going, why didn't I do this sooner? And so, you know, I think if people find themselves feeling stuck, feeling like they're hesitating to take a leap, it's a good time to explore this.

Julian 26:18

Yep, those are awesome, awesome stories. I love hearing that. Happy endings is really, really cool. And I think you know one thing you mentioned before is people's judgment right and the worries about what?

Julian 26:31

are your parents going to think? What are your family going to think? Friends, co-workers, ex-colleagues, what's your LinkedIn network going to think when you make these plunges? But speaking from experience here is that if you have conviction for what you want to do and what you want out of the next step which I assume you kind of wouldn't make that step unless you were fully passionate about it If you're like that's it, I'm going to go here because I'm going to make a difference here. It meets my values A, b, c, d. This is going to be incredible. When you have that excitement and energy for it, everyone comes along with you.

Julian 27:07

And so, coming over to PyBytes full time after last year's redundancy, it was nice that I didn't get to make the choice myself, in the sense that the company made it for me, but I could have gone and looked for another job and I had people trying to.

Real Success Stories of Career Pivots

Julian 27:23

You know, tell me, come and apply for this job. What do you think about this? Would you consider doing this and having that conviction that working full-time on PyBytes, on my own thing, is what's best for me, it's what's best for the family, it's best for my mental health, it's best for my values and what I can do and give back. I can execute quickly on my ideas. I don't have to, you know, write 10 documents every, you know, six months or something to do it, but that was something that really made me passionate about doing it, and so all of these people just rallied around me and going here's how I can help you, reach out if you need anything. And everyone really had my back, and even the family was behind me. You know, it didn't seem like such a bizarre, crazy um thing that I was doing decision, you know yeah.

Andrea 28:13

Well, I think that's a good point is a lot of times the story that we're telling ourselves about other people's reaction. It's actually probably really different in reality, right, yeah, and so you know to your point. Yeah, that network that you have, it's probably, you know, even though it seems like you're going down a narrower path or a different path. But your network is probably getting wider, right, people love to see this. They want to be on that journey with you. You're doing is great, you know, because I think that's also a way people could experiment and see if something different, you know, if they want to move from a non-tech to a tech field, okay, well, why don't you do some training, some coaching, and build up that skill set? That could be another way to experiment that you know can help you test if that's the right ground for you before taking a leap.

Julian 29:04

That was a fantastic sales pitch. Thank you, Andrea. If you need some Python coaching, I know two guys who run a company that does that It'd help you out.

Julian 29:15

Thank you, I appreciate it, but no, no, it really is exciting and I know the world is a kind of scary place at the moment for some. But I just encourage people right now. You know, don't let the dramatization of the media that we're used to seeing that makes everything seem so doom and gloom, because we know that's what sells newspapers and ad spots and everything. But you know, there's still so much opportunity out there. There's still so much to do, there's so much to learn. There's so many different technologies across all different types of whatever your career is finance, hr, whatever there's so many things to learn and grow into that it really doesn't matter when you do it. It's going to be exciting if you really have that passion for it. So, andrew, as we get to the end of this, if there was some sort of parting tip or wisdom that you'd like to impart on people right now as they're listening, imagine they're sitting there on the edge of their seat going Andrew, tell us more. You know what would you say to people?

Andrea 30:24

I would say, you know, I think a lot of people see that stuck feeling as a negative thing, and I would actually say, like, think of that as a positive thing. It's telling you you're ready for something next, you're ready for the next chapter for your career, your life, whatever that might be. And so, don't you know, don't stay in it too long, but use it as your nudge to start exploring.

Julian 30:53

I love that. That's just like what we would look at in corporate jobs. Right, you have to kind of see the red in the metrics to know that there's something to improve or there's something to grow, there's something to change. So if you're seeing the red in your personal career metrics of what you want out of a career, maybe it's time to make that change. So I love that. That's a. You listen to yourself, listen to those things that are happening, listen to what your body's telling you as well. So I think that's fantastic. So, with that said, andrew, where can people find you? I imagine there are people. Let's send people to you for this kind of advice.

Andrea 31:38

Where can they find you? If they I imagine there are people let's send people to you for this kind of advice. Where, where can they find you? Yeah, linkedin is always good, so um, andrea gosling at linkedin and then my website is careerlinkcoachcom um.

Julian 31:45

so either of those two places awesome. We'll link those in the um show notes or the youtube comments description, whatever it's called, and so people can come find you and ping you and ask you for some support. I think that'd be great. So my asthma is flaring up. I'm trying to hold back some coffee right now. This autumn here, everyone it's hit autumn in Australia. It's suddenly gotten a bit cold and then my asthma is kicked up, so I'm trying not to cough into the microphone. But, andrew as well, we always end with reading. So are you reading any books at the moment? What do you like to read and what are you currently diving into?

Viewing Stagnation as a Positive Signal

Andrea 32:22

Yeah, well, no surprise, I'm a bit of a self-improvement junkie right now it comes in handy. But the one book I'm reading now, and I think it kind of plays in well with this, is the um book, let them, by mel robbins. And um, if, if. For folks not familiar with this, you know, she, it's a lot about how do you kind of work past what you perceive to be other people's perceptions, um, and so you know, if we use the example before, oh, people might think I'm crazy, for, you know, leaving this job, they might think it's too risky. Okay, let them. Let them think that Let me analyze the risk for myself and know that I'm mitigating it with X, y Z and that I'm okay to make this decision. Know that I'm mitigating it with X Y Z and that I'm okay to make this decision, and so I think it's a helpful one for people that kind of find themselves getting stuck because they're worried about.

Julian 33:21

You know the perception of others. Love that. That's really cool. I might have to pick that up. I think that's a great, great book to read and it's always. It's the most common thing, right? What are the people going to think? We?

Julian 33:30

worry about that across everything we do, not even just the career thing. So I really like that mentality. It's just that same thing of just focus on what you can control in the situation, right, you can't control what other people think, so I think that's cool. So definitely give that a look if you haven't read it. Everyone and yeah, from look from from my perspective, I'm not reading anything new. If you look up my my profile on pie bites books which you have to check out, by the way, I'll send you a link. If you look up our book tracker, um, I've probably got 20 or 30 books that I'm currently reading because I just I pick them up. I'm like a shotgun reader. I'll read a chapter here, then put it down for a couple of weeks, read it. So nothing new since the last Pie Bites podcast episode.

Julian 34:17

But, yeah, andrew, look, thank you so much for being here. This was so much fun. Long overdue for us to connect and get something like this going, but it's super impressive what you've done. I'm glad that we've kept in touch and found out that we live pretty close to each other as well, so we're going to have to go catch up for a couple of beers or something soon. But yeah, you and for everyone listening. It is currently school holidays in New South Wales, in Australia, so both Andrea and I have our relative children to take care of. Two of them have snuck in. During this recording, andrea and I've gone put the arm out and just wave them away. But yeah, we better go make sure the houses haven't burnt down. So thank you for joining us, andrea. Anything, any last words you want to say before we leave?

Andrea 35:05

No, no. Thank you for having me. Always a pleasure to connect and you know really appreciate it Awesome awesome pleasure to have you here.

Julian 35:12

Thank you so much for sharing all of these wonderful tips, these insights, the wisdom. It's um lovely to have you here and hopefully you won't be a stranger. We'll catch up soon indeed indeed all right, thanks for listening everyone.

Julian 35:25

We will catch up in the next episode. Uh, check out all the links, subscribe and make sure you just go and get some coaching from us if you want to become a Python developer. That's what we do. That's what we do. Alright, thanks, andrew. See ya, pybytes, including learning more Python, engaging with other developers, learning about our guests, discussing these podcast episodes, and much, much more. Please join our community at pybytescircleso. The link is on the screen if you're watching this on YouTube and it's in the show notes for everyone else. When you join, make sure you introduce yourself, engage with myself and Bob and the many other developers in the community. It's one of the greatest things you can do to expand your knowledge and reach and network as a Python developer. We'll see you in the next episode and we will see you in the community.